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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mindreseacher on September 14, 2004, at 11:13:14
Hi, i have a few experiences that maybe someone would relate. I starteed adderall 30mg 2-3 x daily after a 10 day break last tuesday, 1 week ago. For the first 2 days, it worked great again. But this weekend, i did stay up for 2 days, well it seems i just did not need to sleep, and was really busy.
Ok, well sunday to money, i slept long. Well all day monday night i felt horrible. Even the adderall wasnt working, i mean it was working, but i could not feel it, and i was feeling funny sensdations. Now i want to believe that because i failed to sleep for 2 days, is effecting me now, and hopefully ill get back on track. I mean in just 4 days, the effects diminsh! That disappoints me alot.
Now i feel like i must take it, i mean if i miss a dose, i get so very tired, i cant do anything. I know sleep is very important. But my schedule is weird. I dont fall asleep to about7-9am, then sleep to 4pm. SOme days i may only get 2 hrs of sleep. But i still dont think this can cause amphetamines to diminish that fast.
Iv been also taking Dopamine precursors (natural ones), also, reasing more about how amphetamines can depelete storages of DA. But this drug works so good for my add, and more. So if i loose its effects, ill be very disapointed and what not.I mean 30mg of adderall does not last more than 5 hrs, by hour 7 i feel like falling over, but still alert, a weird feeling untill i dose again. ALthough i try nont to drink coffee, which iused to drink 3-4 cups a day, but this can hinder amphetamimes.
IM going to just take it this week, give it a total about 2 weeks, and then alter it with ritalin which i get through another source. Instead of running out, and feeling like hell, ill at least give my brain a break from the amphetamines, use Ritalin which doesent impact me like adderll, but helps me alot when coming off adderall. I still have to take 2-3 ritaln.
Thank you
MR2004
Posted by Hattree on September 14, 2004, at 12:04:46
In reply to SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by Mindreseacher on September 14, 2004, at 11:13:14
hi. if it were me, i'd take a few days off and then try out a much lower dose. you may find that you get less of that cheerful productive feeling, but the benefit (paradoxically) may be longer lasting and you won't be up for two days and crash like a boulder. also if you do need to inch up your dose, you won't be in the stratosphere. may not work for you of couse. speed management is a bear.
Posted by craig getty on September 14, 2004, at 12:56:21
In reply to SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by Mindreseacher on September 14, 2004, at 11:13:14
Perhaps you should take a break from adderall for a couple of days and catch up on sleep. Get your sleep schedule back to normal (at least 6-7 hours a night). Also, talk to you pdoc about switching you to adderall ER - the comedown is much smoother.
> Hi, i have a few experiences that maybe someone would relate. I starteed adderall 30mg 2-3 x daily after a 10 day break last tuesday, 1 week ago. For the first 2 days, it worked great again. But this weekend, i did stay up for 2 days, well it seems i just did not need to sleep, and was really busy.
> Ok, well sunday to money, i slept long. Well all day monday night i felt horrible. Even the adderall wasnt working, i mean it was working, but i could not feel it, and i was feeling funny sensdations. Now i want to believe that because i failed to sleep for 2 days, is effecting me now, and hopefully ill get back on track. I mean in just 4 days, the effects diminsh! That disappoints me alot.
> Now i feel like i must take it, i mean if i miss a dose, i get so very tired, i cant do anything. I know sleep is very important. But my schedule is weird. I dont fall asleep to about7-9am, then sleep to 4pm. SOme days i may only get 2 hrs of sleep. But i still dont think this can cause amphetamines to diminish that fast.
> Iv been also taking Dopamine precursors (natural ones), also, reasing more about how amphetamines can depelete storages of DA. But this drug works so good for my add, and more. So if i loose its effects, ill be very disapointed and what not.
>
> I mean 30mg of adderall does not last more than 5 hrs, by hour 7 i feel like falling over, but still alert, a weird feeling untill i dose again. ALthough i try nont to drink coffee, which iused to drink 3-4 cups a day, but this can hinder amphetamimes.
>
> IM going to just take it this week, give it a total about 2 weeks, and then alter it with ritalin which i get through another source. Instead of running out, and feeling like hell, ill at least give my brain a break from the amphetamines, use Ritalin which doesent impact me like adderll, but helps me alot when coming off adderall. I still have to take 2-3 ritaln.
>
> Thank you
> MR2004
Posted by Mindreseacher on September 14, 2004, at 14:45:10
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by Hattree on September 14, 2004, at 12:04:46
Thank you for your posts. I will explain more in detail. Now if i just took 10 days vacation from addrall last week. I started back up on tuesday. But, if i really really wanted to sleep, i could, i have sleeping meds, but i have this stay up all night working type schedule, and when im home in the am, well, for instance. I take 30mg 3x daily. The reason i take it 3 x daily is because it wearks off in 5-6 hrs if im lucky.
On a typical day, which is totally opposite from most, I wake up around 4-5 pm. I then take my first dose of adderall. My second dose , i can get to about around 10pm. Usually 5-6 hrs i dose, depending on how i feel. Now this takes me into around 5am. Now either i go to sleep , or take another dose, and because i work at night, i usually wont sleep til abou t12 pm. And ill sleep to 5-6pm. So ill take that 5am dose, and it get me through till i want to sleep around noon. BUt if i want to, i can stay up all day, but then say the next night, into the day, im reallly dragging. So it really me taking the adderall and not taking my sleep meds early.
If i can just say ok, ill stop taking adderall after my 5 am dose, well i cold take my sleeping pill, but wake up at noon 1. Whiich means, i take the dose earlier. So it works perfect at 3x daily. Now tolerance builds up fast. I have a scource for Ritalin La 30mg, and usually waint untill im out of adderall. I usually run out 1 week before my refill.
I dont abuse the adderall, i never take more than 30mg within 5-6 hrs. So , this med works about the best any medication ever did. (besides Illegal ones, which most of the time after weeks of use, you cant funcion any way)
So last time, i just stopped adderlal, for about 10 days. BUt the first 3 i had ritalin with worked fine. Then i stopped and just drank cofee and ephedrine. Still i ended up just laying i bed watching tv, doing nothing for days.
THe funny thing is that about 7 days of this went buy, i drug myself to my doctors appointment, got my refill, and by later than night after dosing, i was like 80 percent better, my tolerance seems to come back , i was energetic, motivativated. I even did my work online about 8 hrs non stop.
Now i believe if one has ADD, and there are 6 types. I qualify for Type 2 like big time. Lack of motivationi, Drug use, Lack of Joy doing things and everything is boring. LIke i though the only way to get this feeling back is either keep using opiates, or wait for some mericle drug.
Well, I am also taking some amio acids an supplements. Now im thinking, if it is smart to take a few dopamine supplements. IM not sure if they are working, because its ahrd to tell if natural meds work, esp taking powerful amphetamies, then you take L-Tyrosine, well i dont think your gonna fee it.Evenif i sleep, after a while i still dont feel right, unless i tak emy dose. I have Klonopin 1mg also whichi take, but at a small dose, just enought to take any anxiety away from the stimulant, and klonopin is i beleive less addictve than xanax or afivan, because its longer acting, without a hard downfall.
Now i can see where addictive drugs which are short acting ar emost addictive. LIKe ligting up that crack pipe ex, fo rthat 5 second rush, you are at the end of the iine. Or even sniffing oxycontin, that quick euphoria, then you need another one 3-4 hrs later. Adter even 2 day fo this my tolerance is bad.I just wonder if my othe rmeds can intereact with Addderall, but indot see how. Im taking 10mg of lexapro, suboxone 16mg and klonopin like 1mg , 2x daily.
thak you
Posted by mattw84 on September 14, 2004, at 16:11:49
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by Mindreseacher on September 14, 2004, at 14:45:10
I can easily see why you build up a tolerance so quickly, namely because your dose is so high! I know everybody responds to amphetamines differently but a total of 90 mg in one day is almost criminal! I would suggest getting a second opinion from another doctor. Adderall DOES reach a 'steady state' in the blood stream and at such a high dose I would imagine it does so very quickly. Which you can thank for your tolerance to the drug. I would never recommend just stopping use like you have done before you said, at said dose anyways. The withdrawal from such a dose I would imagine leads to very dark depression, almost schizo/psychosis type thought pattern. I highly recommend re-evaluating your dosing with a new doctor, and wish you the best of luck with everything!
Posted by Mindreseacher on September 15, 2004, at 0:45:12
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines » Mindreseacher, posted by mattw84 on September 14, 2004, at 16:11:49
hello, yes, i know i was on 60mg, but for some reason, i needed another dose, because adderall in my body must be eliminated faster than normal, because i could literally feel it wearing off, and needing another dose after 5-6 hrs. BUt the main thing is that im not taking a huge dose at once. That would be alot worse. I know 90mg is high, but some users iv spoke to did take that much, though im a big guy, about 235, and i have a bad tolerance to drugs. Heck, i had a dependency with oxycontins. THe ambsolute max dose is 80mg , 2 or 3 daily, this dose is probably used in cancer patients etc. Well i was using around this much or more, per day. BUt even though i have a dependency addictoni to opiates, i dont feel high or drug seeking behavior with adderall, but i feel more dependant on it than any other med. Ya, its a fine line, some would say, but I look at it this way. Its perscribed. I dont take more that persribed, say 50 mg at once , 30mg is max. My life is "not unmanagable, yet more managageable" while taking adderall. For example, before i would have to use drugs to get motivated etc. Just one point. Now i can say do computer work and research for hours. Focus, calm , and not scattered. If i do get too anxioius, i take .5mg of klonopin only, maximun up to 1mg.
So benzos can be abuse and i have no incling to abuse them, and i never was a "speed addict", so my doctor perscribed me such. Even though i have an addiction, doesnt mean ill abuse every medication. And also, this medication combo helps Lessen my drug craving for opiates about 80 percent. In the past, i had to always be using. Drug addicton and mental health issues is a war in itself.I must ask an a question relating to this. I do have Access to Ritalin. Now i know it would not be smart to mix each, but how about taking a break (note: even though i just took a break one week ago from Amphetamines), but say take a break, switchover to Ritalin for 1 week. Then go back on to AMphetamines.
Iv done this before and had a bit of a problem, but nothing like i had when i stopped sone cold. Now, i know ritalin is similar, but it does act different by blocking the reuptake of catacolamines, as per amphetamines release. So in theory, If i was taking adderall, and contsant releaseing stored dopamine, then switched to ritalin, which would block the ruptake of dopamine and NE, So would cause more dopamine to be stored. Now by the end of the week, MY theory would be more stored fresh dopamine instead of a constant release. But i now am reading more and more and its getting more complicated. Different mechansims, precursors, agaontst, wow, very very confusing when you start reading into it, Neuropharmalogical wise. I guess experienting is the only sure fire waymindreseach
Posted by craig getty on September 15, 2004, at 12:30:46
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by Mindreseacher on September 14, 2004, at 14:45:10
I agree with the previous poster that a) your dose is too high, and b) you should *definitely* seek the advise of a new doctor rather than just experiment on your own.
I wouldn't recommend quitting such a high dose of adderall cold turkey even if you start taking ritalin right away. And, as I posted before - you might want to try switching to adderall er for an easier come down.
I, too, experience the symptoms you describe: "Lack of motivation, Drug use, Lack of Joy doing things and everything is boring." I also developed a tolerance to opiates (vicodin). In addition to the type II ADD, these are also criteria for dysthymia. I'm currently on adderall er and wellbutrin sr. You should consider switching from lexapro to wellbutrin. Wellbutrin works on norepinephrine and a bit on dopamine, too. I find it stimulating (as opposed to when I took lexapro, which made me tired).
One more thing... Although I feel a bit presumptuous mentioning this since I don't know anything about you, but if possible, you should find a job and lifestyle without such crazy hours. A more regular schedule is necessary to the healing process.
Posted by mindreseacher on September 15, 2004, at 16:51:05
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines » Mindreseacher, posted by craig getty on September 15, 2004, at 12:30:46
yes, i have to stop night shift, then the next day im up , and dont feel like sleeping untill 6 hrs before work. anyway, yes, lowering the dose, is one factor, or switching over to say ritalin for a week.
What dose of adderall are you one. WHat im thinking is that welbutrin is sorta potentiating and actually allowing you to lower your dose of adderall. THis is what im looking into, but more soe a nootropic. Welbutrin may be an option, but iv been reading up so much on smart drugs, and other dopamine agaonists which can be ordered overseas. I cant name them on here, but some seem to be safe, and effect, and some actually stimulate nerve growth cells, along with eliminating toxins from amphetamines. Plus there pro cognitive.
THere was a drug in france, which would have been great for reducing or taking breaks from amphetamines, called amineptine. But they did studies on it, and i guess it causes overdosing and addictive properties due to it both blocked dopamine and released it. Like welbutrin but 10x stronger, and more dopamine. Now when it comes to dopamine, im talking the nucleus accumbens, which amphetamines tend to release.But sleep i know is very very important first. Then ill worry about lowering th edose slowely. Or even adding another stimulant, but not ephedrine.
Some DOpamine agonists which i cant think of are welbutrin, NADH, L-Dopa, I usually search for dopamine agonists or antiparkinson drugs. But i know enought not to just take any drug. I would research it first, and run it by my doc. Esp if it was overseas.
But if you think about it, that 90mg dose is because 1 dose does not last. Its not like im taking 90mg in 10 hrs. But in 10 hrs, basially thats 2 doses, but if i could make the drug last longer by taking another DA agonist, without overdoing it, it may work.
Boy im starting to feel like some mind junkie. You said you had a problem with vicodin, DO you have any dependence on Adderall. I just feel that it works really good, and yes i could feel the effects at first, but not like a high like opiates.
I may try switching over to ritalin for a few days, being they do act different. IM not sure if this will help or be productive, but its worth a try.
thankx
mr
Posted by craig getty on September 15, 2004, at 23:45:21
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by mindreseacher on September 15, 2004, at 16:51:05
I've only been on adderall er for 3 weeks. The original scrip was for 10 mg a day, but this wasn't doing it so I started taking 20 mg. I'm meeting with my pdoc tomorrow to get the new scrip written for 20 or 30mg. Today was not a good day for me. I found myself procrastinating, disorganized, and not getting anything done. The adderall was supposed to help this so I don't know what the deal is. I took 15mg of adderall at 10 am, and I was back asleep by 2pm.
I don't think I can get addicted to adderall b/c as with all drugs, I get bored with them first. It's bizarre, but the one positive aspect of my depression is that it overrides the addictive potential of any drug I do. I used to snort lines of coke and then just feel the need to take a nap.
Posted by mindreseacher on September 16, 2004, at 6:56:02
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by craig getty on September 15, 2004, at 23:45:21
Ya know thats funny because i know people like that. THere is times i took adderall and or ephedrine and feel asleep. Now you say your are going to up the dose. NOw take into consideration your bodywieght and tolerance. Im 230, have a huge tolerance to meds, and Adderall, wears off in 5-6 hrs, Now adderall xr is not covered by my silly insurance. I would think dexedrine spanuals would not be either.
I was never into sleed or coke, so i know that i wont get a severe addiction to adderall., at most a dependance. But a positve one since it helps me so much. ANd is legally perscribed. Like i said im researching as we speak NOOtropics and i have about 25 listed. But I wil not post about themm due to the FDA rule on here.
Natural supplements dont seem like there working like they shoudl, but im not expecting them to replace meds, just boost them up and or replenish receptor activity. Like you said,you cant just stop 90mg a day adderall, like i did, or you will be sleeping for 3 days, literally, then another 3 in bed. So that waisted a week of my life.
I have been taking Ritalin, 30mg 2x daily, which i still dont feel is working, but is keeping me up and doing things. Now Its Ritalin LA, so its working 7 hrs at least. ITs the only alternative i could take witout going into hypbernation, while giving amphetamies a break.BUT, i only plan to do this for 2-3 days,, because i just took a 10 day break 1 week ago. So i will resume my adderall tommorrow, for another week, and if it goes well, ill stick with doing such. But just swithing over to ritalin for 7 days, is sorta silly because first im not perscribed it,second it doesnt work as well, and may become tolerant to that also. THen nothing will work. So i read amphetamines dont take long to get back some or most of their tolerance. Esp if i take another Da or Na stimulant like welbutrin, or Bromocripite.
Since adderall releases stored dopamine and ne, more so that blocking the reuptake, i again theorized this. Take a natural supplement precursor like L-Tyrosine or NadH to produce dopamine. This will allow more dopamine available to be released. Then if i do find a medication or Nootropic , make sue it moreso,blocks the reuptake of DA/Na, To a lessser extend like welbutrin. Nothing too power full or ill be like taking a dose of METHamphetamine! (meth both blocks and releases Da/Na, Last 2-3 x longer int he brain, and releases Serotonin. Now i see why meth is so potent and addictive. Mix meth with oxy and you have the ultimate addictive combo.
But back to adderall. You did say, lack of motivation, disorganized, disarray feeling, confused, dysphoric mood, is what i used ot experience so much, i could not take it, and would have to use drugs. (opites). But the money you spend on opiates is the downfall. I colld say i did not have any really serious other problems but money and withdrawl. But that was only within 8 months. So now i have a medication or 2 plus supplements that work very very well, i dont want to loose the effect. Result can be me going back to opiates which is what i cannot afford. I dont drink alcholol, which is good, no extacy nothing.
Addiction has so many different branches i would write a book on it in expereinces. Hit me back on your adderall trial.
mindresearch
Posted by richconn81 on September 16, 2004, at 23:19:01
In reply to Re: SLeep Problems with amphetamines, posted by mindreseacher on September 16, 2004, at 6:56:02
I used to take adderall about a year ago and absolutely loved the energy and euphoria it gave me, I stopped taking it after a month for some reason. A few days a go my doctor prescribed it again to help me in college. I popped a 10 mg pill and waited for that euphoric energy. Unfourtunaely it never really came. I felt more alert but that was about it. Even at high doses I got the same effect. Has anyone else experienced a sudden resistance to the more intense effects of adderall?!!(not tolerance) It can't be tolerance considering I took it last a year before and only for a short period. My only explanation is that it is caused by my new meds: effexor and subutex. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Posted by scottlaen on September 17, 2004, at 10:03:06
In reply to Re: Problems with amphetamine resistance, posted by richconn81 on September 16, 2004, at 23:19:01
IT can depend a lot on what you are eating and what other drugs/supplements you are taking. I've been taking adderall for years and there's rarely any euphoric effects, although there was when I started.
If you want Adderall to work best, take L-Trysine supplement, avoid any acidic juices or fruits containing vitamin C within 2 hours of the dose. Also consider taking an Alka-Seltzer, which will reduce any residual stomach acid that is blocking the absorption of the drug.
I also hear that euphoric effects of this medication decrease with age.
> I used to take adderall about a year ago and absolutely loved the energy and euphoria it gave me, I stopped taking it after a month for some reason. A few days a go my doctor prescribed it again to help me in college. I popped a 10 mg pill and waited for that euphoric energy. Unfourtunaely it never really came. I felt more alert but that was about it. Even at high doses I got the same effect. Has anyone else experienced a sudden resistance to the more intense effects of adderall?!!(not tolerance) It can't be tolerance considering I took it last a year before and only for a short period. My only explanation is that it is caused by my new meds: effexor and subutex. Any feedback would be appreciated.
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