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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ace on October 29, 2003, at 16:58:02
In reply to Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenting??, posted by bridge on October 29, 2003, at 14:21:35
> Hi,
> I'm wondering if Depression/SAD is caused by unstable surrounding growing up. Say, my brain chemisty function is somewhat vulnerable to the illness and having disfunctional family(however you define it) triggers the illness?I think that's preety accurate. Somepeople are born tall, others short. Some are born with robust neurotransmition which can withstand trauma, others are born with weaker neurotransmition- just waiting for a trauma (all at oce or gradually) to put a spoke in the wheel of neurotransmition.
> Anyone here at this forum having happy, loving family growing up(again however you define it) yet suffering from the illness anyway??
> I have been on several AD's over past two years and now trying to tame my emotion with psycho therapy along with my meds...Just wondering, any thoughts???I think psychotherapy is nonsense. I think you have to stop asking outside sources for advice and find it in yourself- easier said than done sometimes. I just think therapy confirms the poor self-esteem of the patient. From the outset there is a power structure where therapist is superior- use friends as therapists or yourself.
That's just my opinion but- so call me a moron if you disagree!
Take care,
Ace.
Posted by DSCH on October 29, 2003, at 19:34:16
In reply to Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenting??, posted by bridge on October 29, 2003, at 14:21:35
Parenting used to be what they pinned the spectrum of autistic disorders on. I think medical professionals who still hold on to the old-fashioned Freudian dogma are likely to keep reaching for that hammer whenever they come across a nail they don't understand physiologically and genetically.
Posted by KimberlyDi on October 30, 2003, at 7:40:16
In reply to Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenting??, posted by bridge on October 29, 2003, at 14:21:35
My dad was always away in the Navy. My mother came from a disfuctional family herself and demanded perfection from me and my brother. Would I have these same problems if I had grown up secure in the love of 2 parents? I'll never know.
> Hi,
> I'm wondering if Depression/SAD is caused by unstable surrounding growing up. Say, my brain chemisty function is somewhat vulnerable to the illness and having disfunctional family(however you define it) triggers the illness?
> Anyone here at this forum having happy, loving family growing up(again however you define it) yet suffering from the illness anyway??
> I have been on several AD's over past two years and now trying to tame my emotion with psycho therapy along with my meds...Just wondering, any thoughts???
Posted by LynneDa on October 30, 2003, at 12:34:55
In reply to Re: Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenting?? » bridge, posted by KimberlyDi on October 30, 2003, at 7:40:16
Hi! I grew up in a *normal* home with Mom staying at home and Dad working. I was very happy all my growing up years. But, no one is perfect as parents and there were things that I look back on in my childhood that could be viewed as *dysfunctions*. I always suspected I had a *dark* side, but it didn't surface til my 30s when I was confronted with severe stress.
We humans are all just a few steps away from mental unbalance at any given time - upbringing maybe precipitates it, life circumstances do too. It's the split of nature vs. nurture. No sense blaming anyone or anything - if your past bothers you, work on it thru therapy. If your chemicals are bringing you down, your meds can help straighten that side out.
Good luck to you in figuring out these eternal mysteries :-)
Posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 14:06:35
In reply to Re: Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenting?? » bridge, posted by ace on October 29, 2003, at 16:58:02
> I think that's preety accurate. Somepeople are born tall, others short. Some are born with robust neurotransmition which can withstand trauma, others are born with weaker neurotransmition- just waiting for a trauma (all at oce or gradually) to put a spoke in the wheel of neurotransmition.That's how I've envisioned it. Allergies make a good analogy. If you're inherently allergic to, say, mold and aren't exposed to it, then you're okay. But if you're in a moldy basement your underlying vulnerability will surface.
> > Anyone here at this forum having happy, loving family growing up(again however you define it) yet suffering from the illness anyway??Well, happy in the sense that I knew both my parents loved me, got positive reinforcement for the things I did well. But with age and distance, by my own observations, and by talking it through in therapy I've come to realize that there were a lot of dysfunctional things going on. So I guess you could say I got a bit of a mixed bag.
> I think psychotherapy is nonsense. I think you have to stop asking outside sources for advice and find it in yourself- easier said than done sometimes. I just think therapy confirms the poor self-esteem of the patient. From the outset there is a power structure where therapist is superior- use friends as therapists or yourself.
I have to disagree with you. I've never felt a power structure. After all, we pay them. And I don't hesitate to say when I disagree with something that's suggested. My therapist has been helpful in a million ways. She forces me to stop beating up on myself, helps break through the isolation when I'm in terrible shape, she points out cognitive distortions when I just can't see them in myself (despite having seen Burns' book), has had some good suggestions on how to deal with certain situations and from those I get the hang of coming up with other ideas, and most important, she helps my pdoc and me in keeping tabs on how I'm doing. Her observations from seeing me more frequently helped the two of them realize I had a bipolar component to my illness. I know my therapist and pdoc have had a number of conversations to make sure they had a complete picture and could each figure out how best to help me. My friends provide great support, but it's a lot to ask of them to keep me afloat all the time. I try but I don't think I could do it *all* by myself - perceptions are so distorted in the depressed brain.
> That's just my opinion but- so call me a moron if you disagree!
Naw, I won't call you a moron. Nor would I call you the synonym of a donkey. :) You are, after all, the Nardil Champion! :) We've all had different experiences and have our own opinions.
Emme
>
> Take care,
> Ace.
Posted by bridge on October 30, 2003, at 16:01:09
In reply to Re: Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenti » ace, posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 14:06:35
Thank you for your kind thoughts!!
I must say my parents loved me the best they can. Perhaps I and my parents are the prisoners of our own minds...
I now hope I find the right folmula of meds and have enough confidence to say I feel alright. I now being switched from remeron + lamictal to zoloft + lamictal. I have tried most other SSRI's and Effexor, I'm a bit desparate to see what works for me...and also I had adverse effect when getting off effexor, I'm concerned that if zoloft is not working would I go thru similar effext to get off to something else? Zoloft seems not to be a *notorious* med, can anyone tell me little more??
Posted by Liligoth on October 30, 2003, at 18:28:16
In reply to Re: Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenti » ace, posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 14:06:35
I would have to agree with Ace on this. What is the use in convincing people with problems that they are ok the way they are??? Everyone I know who has done psychotherapy has gotten much worse.
Posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 19:24:37
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense, posted by Liligoth on October 30, 2003, at 18:28:16
> I would have to agree with Ace on this. What is the use in convincing people with problems that they are ok the way they are???
Hmmm...I strongly doubt that that's how *all* therapists operate. I think one of the goals of talk therapy, especially those with some cognitive-behavioral aspect, is to help people "see things as they are". At least that's the phrase a therapist used with me. :) If you're horribly depressed you may see things through a really grim filter, including yourself. Talk therapy can help break through some of that even as you're working on your meds. At the same time, "seeing things as they are" includes exploring how you could be doing things better, getting aware of bad automatic ways of thinking (god knows I have plenty - and they've been tempered), maybe learnig some new ways of interacting with the world, strategies to help deal with the stress that the mood disorder creates in your life.
I personally don't think it makes sense to tell people they are NOT okay the way they are. I mean everyone has something good going for them in some way. Better to look at the whole person and accentuate the positive, and work to eliminate the negative.
>Everyone I know who has done psychotherapy has gotten much worse.
We must run with different crowds. I've known some people who didn't feel like they were benefitting from their therapists and got rid of them. I know people who really feel like they benefitted a lot. Like anything else, I figured it must depend on the client, the therapist, and how productively they interact.
Posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 19:54:02
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense, posted by Liligoth on October 30, 2003, at 18:28:16
I'm not trying to be too argumentative and preachy about my opinions on psychotherapy. It's just that my therapist has been so helpful and I really feel like I've benefitted. I know some people have not had such positive experiences.
Posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:46:15
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense ?Liligoth, posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 19:24:37
> > I would have to agree with Ace on this. What is the use in convincing people with problems that they are ok the way they are???
>
> Hmmm...I strongly doubt that that's how *all* therapists operate. I think one of the goals of talk therapy, especially those with some cognitive-behavioral aspect, is to help people "see things as they are". At least that's the phrase a therapist used with me. :) If you're horribly depressed you may see things through a really grim filter, including yourself. Talk therapy can help break through some of that even as you're working on your meds. At the same time, "seeing things as they are" includes exploring how you could be doing things better, getting aware of bad automatic ways of thinking (god knows I have plenty - and they've been tempered), maybe learnig some new ways of interacting with the world, strategies to help deal with the stress that the mood disorder creates in your life.
>
> I personally don't think it makes sense to tell people they are NOT okay the way they are. I mean everyone has something good going for them in some way. Better to look at the whole person and accentuate the positive, and work to eliminate the negative.
>
> >Everyone I know who has done psychotherapy has gotten much worse.
>
> We must run with different crowds. I've known some people who didn't feel like they were benefitting from their therapists and got rid of them. I know people who really feel like they benefitted a lot. Like anything else, I figured it must depend on the client, the therapist, and how productively they interact.
>
>
>There is a good book which really talks about this stuff called "Against therapy" . I should say I don't agree with everything in this book. But I am glad you benefitted of it- please don't take any offence to my views- i can be opinionated!!. It's just very hard for me (the idea of therapy with another person)- I refuse to have anyone tell me how to percieve the world.
The concept of paying someone money to direct your (or help direct) your life is distasteful for me.
I must suffer and triumph alone, find my own answers to life, and find my meaning.
But, that is just me! Everyone is free to do what they wish and I wish nothing more than happiness for my fellow humans. I just want to see those who are destroying our world to wake up!
Take Care,
Ace.
Posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:47:44
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense ?Emme, posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:46:15
That wasn't the correct book that was linked!
It's by Jeffrey Mason...I'll try again: ""Against Therapy"
Posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:48:35
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense, posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:47:44
I'll try again!!!: "Against Therapy"
Posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 21:28:21
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense, posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:48:35
> I'll try again!!!: "Against Therapy"
Hey, another reason for a trip to Barnes & Noble! I wonder what the author of Against Therapy has to say about CBT.
I just poked at a book about psychotherapy (can't remember the title - I'll have to look it up). It discussed and discredited psychoanalysis and psychodynamic therapy, their lack of usefulness, unproven theoretical bases, and potential for harm. He mentioned at least one instance where someone was subjected to in-depth psychoanalysis with no medication, and didn't get better until removed from psychoanalysis and started on the correct medication.
In contrast, that author mentioned CBT as being a sensible and well tested form of helpful therapy. I read Burns' Feeling Good book a while back. I remember having issues with some aspects of the book, but thinking that there was some useful stuff to be taken from it.
Posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 21:55:15
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » Emme, posted by ace on October 30, 2003, at 20:46:15
> It's just very hard for me (the idea of therapy with another person)- I refuse to have anyone tell me how to percieve the world.
Would they be telling you how to perceive the world, or just presenting some alternative viewpoints that you might not have thought of?
> The concept of paying someone money to direct your (or help direct) your life is distasteful for me.
Yeah, I agree. The money part is awkward. But I guess they gotta pay the rent. And it's also worth it for the extra feedback she can give my pdoc, which has helped in our medication selections.
> I must suffer and triumph alone, find my own answers to life, and find my meaning.
But you are not alone. You have....Nardil! Sorry, I just couldn't resist teasing. You've come close to sending me begging for the stuff. Teasing aside, introspection is good and something we should all do. I personally don't do so well doing all my suffering alone - I get really frightened and isolated and logical thinking goes out the window.
> I just want to see those who are destroying our world to wake up!
Who's destroying our world? (Well, I could offer a few political figures for options, but that may not be what you meant.)Peace to ya,
Emme
Posted by glenn on October 31, 2003, at 4:06:37
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » ace, posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 21:55:15
I atually went to a very good therapist and was so impressed I trained to be one for 3 years, I have to say however that it did not help at all when I became severely ill and cbt was like standing on the side of a motorway trying to stop cars by putting out my hand ( ie stopping "ants")automatic negative thoughts as they call them, if I ever managed to stop one there was a whole load more coming through.
Medications are not perfect but at least they cannot tell you that you are denying, repressing,or not wanting to get better, and charge you plenty of money for the priveledge.
The probem seems to be that there is very little to indicate who, or what conditions might benefit from one as opposed to the other ( or both!)
It does appear this may be changing as ptsd seems to be made worse by therapy so at least some progress has been made.
My own view is that a good relationship with a good therapist is great for interpersonal relationship difficulties but is maybe not such a good idea for sreious depression/ anxiety.Glenn
Posted by Emme on October 31, 2003, at 6:51:31
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » Emme, posted by glenn on October 31, 2003, at 4:06:37
I hear ya! When my depression is at it's worst I just can't be reached and it's pretty tough to correct overly negative thoughts. And you're right. They're queued up for you. At that point my therapist swtiches to 'life suport' mode: doing her best to make sure I'm safe by having me check in with her, making sure my pdoc is fully informed (not to say I don't also call my pdoc myself), helping me with finding ways to minimize my work loads and stress levels when I can't function, making sure I don't feel alone in the abyss. Very valuable for me.
When the medication is working it brings me to the point where we actually get something done. Nothing involving repressed memories or anything like that. Just looking at what's going on in the here and now and how to deal with it better, plus however much CBT seems to be needed. Not to mention dealing with the debris *caused* by the mood disorder - such as career setbacks, disruption of relationships, and other prepercussions. Are you a practicing therapist? Has this been your experience?
I didn't know therapy made things worse people with PTSD. Maybe because it encourages further rehashing of horrifying incidents? Do you know if that is specific to PTSD as my understanding was that it's been shown that the combination of medication and therapy tends to yield the best results for depression and anxiety. How to predict who will benefit the most from one or the other or both....well, good question. Consider both and if you find you don't need one then drop it...?
I bet this thread gets sent to psychological babble soon. Maybe I'll mention something about medicine. How about.....clonazepam is great...I can't take SSRIs but they are lifesavers for some...neurontin was great for raw nerves... There. That ought to do it. :) Jeez I'm getting long winded.
Emme
> I atually went to a very good therapist and was so impressed I trained to be one for 3 years, I have to say however that it did not help at all when I became severely ill and cbt was like standing on the side of a motorway trying to stop cars by putting out my hand ( ie stopping "ants")automatic negative thoughts as they call them, if I ever managed to stop one there was a whole load more coming through.
> Medications are not perfect but at least they cannot tell you that you are denying, repressing,or not wanting to get better, and charge you plenty of money for the priveledge.
> The probem seems to be that there is very little to indicate who, or what conditions might benefit from one as opposed to the other ( or both!)
> It does appear this may be changing as ptsd seems to be made worse by therapy so at least some progress has been made.
> My own view is that a good relationship with a good therapist is great for interpersonal relationship difficulties but is maybe not such a good idea for sreious depression/ anxiety.
>
> Glenn
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 10:39:38
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » Emme, posted by glenn on October 31, 2003, at 4:06:37
> I atually went to a very good therapist and was so impressed I trained to be one for 3 years, I have to say however that it did not help at all when I became severely ill...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding psychotherapy to Psychological Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031030/msgs/275234.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Clayton on October 31, 2003, at 13:38:06
In reply to Hope I didn't sound too preachy, posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 19:54:02
I grew uo with extremely dysfunctional parenting.
I have suffered, debilitating severe SAD.
I also abused meth tabs ("whites") for a couple of years about thirty years ago. Amphetamines in particular are know to cause permanent dyfunction in brain function.
My axiiety sysmtoms started just when I stopped swallowing those pills. They include SAD, moderate GAD, insomnia and depression.
Just a guess, but I'd tend to agree that the parenting contributed mostly to the SAD. Or, if I may speculate, the speed caused anxiety disorders and the parenting caused them to manifest primarily as SAD.
Posted by KimberlyDi on October 31, 2003, at 15:00:50
In reply to Re: Hope I didn't sound too preachy, posted by Clayton on October 31, 2003, at 13:38:06
Methamphetamine (METH) is a major drug of abuse which causes neurotoxicity by depleting dopamine, its metabolites, high-affinity dopamine uptake sites and tyrosine hydroxylase activity in the striatum.
-Cooney CA, Wise CK, Poirier LA, Ali SF
FDA Jeffersonok, sum it up, meth destroys dopamine. i was lucky that i only dabbled in it during my senior year in highschool. since then i've always had a weakness for alcohol and an extremely low sex drive (perhaps before too). My newest idea is to drop the SSRI's and do what I can to raise my dopamine levels (without alcohol of course). :) once i withdrawal sanely and safely from effexor. if that day ever happens.
After studying sociology, I believe that what a person becomes is influenced by both genetics and environment.
> I grew uo with extremely dysfunctional parenting.
>
> I have suffered, debilitating severe SAD.
>
> I also abused meth tabs ("whites") for a couple of years about thirty years ago. Amphetamines in particular are know to cause permanent dyfunction in brain function.
>
> My axiiety sysmtoms started just when I stopped swallowing those pills. They include SAD, moderate GAD, insomnia and depression.
>
> Just a guess, but I'd tend to agree that the parenting contributed mostly to the SAD. Or, if I may speculate, the speed caused anxiety disorders and the parenting caused them to manifest primarily as SAD.
Posted by Clayton on November 1, 2003, at 2:48:28
In reply to Dopamine Meth » Clayton, posted by KimberlyDi on October 31, 2003, at 15:00:50
Thank you for your response. You are more knowledgable than I am. I do agree with you, though. Search out my posts on the effects of Meth in PsychoBabble and Substance Abuse sections.
I've posted warnings, shared experiences about what psychotropics have helped me (Paxil with Remaron plus unauthorized Provigil is very good), and posted a few links to scientific research literature for cautious and frightened beginners.May I ask some simple questions? Do the dopamine stores continue to replenish themselves or is the dopamine production mechanism permanently damaged?
What is the long-term effect on the high-affinity dopamine uptake sites? Distruction, altered function, reduced function or a combination?
Do you have time to explain or suggest links to "tyrosine hydroxylase activity in the striatum"? I'm ignorant here.
And just how you might be planning to augment your dopamine levels? Get some unauthorized Ameneptine or Nominifense? I have a possible source for ameneptine and it is suppossed to be very good, especially for drive deficient people. I have a terrible amotivational syndrome and mood disorders. (That's another unauthorized drug, though, a THIRD antidepressant. Maybe something should be eliminated, too). Or will you do somethine else? Can altering GABA, maybe via Neurontin, acomplish this (Dopamine augmentation)? Or are you wealthy and buying loads of apomorphine pills?
Doesn't meth do some serious damage to the seratonin system as well?
Any time you have to answer is greatly appreciated?
I've asked for a lot of your time and knowledge here but anything you can manage to pass on is greatly appreciated. For me knowledge is therapeutic.
Thanks!
Posted by Liligoth on November 3, 2003, at 4:24:49
In reply to Hope I didn't sound too preachy, posted by Emme on October 30, 2003, at 19:54:02
> I'm not trying to be too argumentative and preachy about my opinions on psychotherapy. It's just that my therapist has been so helpful and I really feel like I've benefitted. I know some people have not had such positive experiences.
hey np Emme you didnt come off like that at all & I was deliberately being provocative to get some discussion going anyway ;)
cheers,
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 3, 2003, at 13:09:32
In reply to Re: Dopamine Meth Damage » KimberlyDi, posted by Clayton on November 1, 2003, at 2:48:28
Clayton,
I'm only wise enough to quote from a topic that I had recently read in my quest for knowledge. I will gladly share any knowledge, when I have it. :)KDi in Texas
Posted by stacia on November 3, 2003, at 13:31:42
In reply to Depression/SAD caused by disfunctional parenting??, posted by bridge on October 29, 2003, at 14:21:35
A diathesis stress model of psychiatric disorders would agree with your (bridge) original hypothesis (that a biological predisposition towards depression could be "triggered" by a stressor like dysfunctional family life). There are plently of resources on the net discussing this theory and its implications. Hope this helps.
Posted by Clayton on November 3, 2003, at 14:44:31
In reply to Re: Dopamine Meth Damage » Clayton, posted by KimberlyDi on November 3, 2003, at 13:09:32
KDi,
Thank you for offering to share your knowledge. I am grateful and look forward to reading it. I am on a quest myself...
Posted by Clayton on November 3, 2003, at 14:46:41
In reply to Re: Dopamine Meth Damage » Clayton, posted by KimberlyDi on November 3, 2003, at 13:09:32
KDi,
Yes, please do share. I look dorward to hearing.
Best Wishes.
This is the end of the thread.
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