![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 15:25:19
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by SLS on August 1, 2003, at 12:59:13
No, but I have such trouble tolerating drugs, thus the supplement route. I tried Mirapex, got some dopamine benefit, but the side effects were brutal.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:42:40
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 11:19:50
> Lar,
> I was so pleased that you responded, since your past postings have shown real expertise on the subject. I'm in a pretty depressive period right now, so my brain isn't working too well. So it will take some time to digest your response, and make an intelligent response.That's kewl.
> In the meantime, do you feel NADH has a place in this equation? (in that it increases L-dopa in the body AND the brain), so is possibly unaffected by the mentioned bottleneck.
NADH is like putting new batteries in a flashlight that had been quite dim. It's the Energizer Bunny for energy production. It happens to directly promote a lot of enzymatic processes, including, apparently, the conversion of tyrosine to L-dopa.
> The natural question that follows is: what would you consider the ideal regimen for increasing catecholemine supplements, for anergic depression? (I'm currently on 500 mg. tyrosine, but reduced to 5 mg. NADH, because of growing anxiety and insomnia).
Are you taking other B-vitamins? You need to make sure you take a B-complex. You'll deplete other B's a faster rate because NADH accelerates the processes that use them up. You may also recall that both Ron Hill and I have noticed that TMG helps "smooth out" the anxiety/irritability arising from NADH.
> Interestingly, these side effects started when I DROPPED phenylalanine (I theorized that tyrosine by itself was having more effect, without phenylalanine).
You are at risk of committing an error in logic, here. If you think about scientific research, everything comes down to statistical significance, which is nothing more than an estimate of the risk of coincidental correlation. Coincidental correlation is the possibility that two things appear to be related, but aren't in fact related at all. They just happened by coincidence. Drawing a conclusion from coincidental correlation is an error in logic known as "post hoc, ergo propter hoc"...literally, "after this, therefore because of this". Just because a particular event follows a specified manipulation does not mean the manipulation caused the event. It could have been a chance happening.
So, you can easily test the relationship by restarting phenylalanine (while keeping the other supplements constant), and see what it does for you/to you. Then stop it again. If your symptoms seem to alternate with that series of manipulations, you've got pretty good evidence for what phenylaline does in your body.
> As another side note, I just restarted Cytomel (T3 thyroid), after reading an article about the interactions of thyroid and catecholemines, hoping I would respond better to cytomel, now that i'm on catecholemine supplements.
I'll look into that.
Lar
Posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 17:10:28
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:42:40
Lar,
Since my synapse aren’t firing well these days, maybe you can just critique my regimen. The following are taken 40 minutes apart: 5 mg. NADH (on wakeup), later acetyl-L-tyrosine, B6, C; later 500 mg. phenylalanine; later protein bar with B-complex, mineral complex, etc.
Regarding B vitamins, I take a B-complex 2X daily, plus separate B6, B-12, Folic acid.
I had seen your reference to TMG in earlier postings, what is it?
I’ll give phenylalanine another try, based on your comment about “false cause/effect”.
I want to address some specific issues, but just too depressed to put the thoughts together, sorry.
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 17:10:28
> Lar,
> Since my synapse aren’t firing well these days, maybe you can just critique my regimen.OK.
> The following are taken 40 minutes apart: 5 mg. NADH (on wakeup), later acetyl-L-tyrosine,
Why the acetylated tyrosine?
>B6, C; later 500 mg. phenylalanine; later protein bar with B-complex, mineral complex, etc.
What's your total zinc and selenium intake?
> Regarding B vitamins, I take a B-complex 2X daily, plus separate B6, B-12, Folic acid.
That covers the B's, fer sure.
> I had seen your reference to TMG in earlier postings, what is it?
Trimethylglycine. It's also known as betaine, because the most common natural source is beets (genus Beta). Don't use betaine hydrochloride. Instead, get TMG, which is also known as freebase betaine, or anhydrous betaine.
Here's one source:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/source-naturals-2107800876.html
> I’ll give phenylalanine another try, based on your comment about “false cause/effect”.
It will clear up what it does in your body, which is an important thing to know.
> I want to address some specific issues, but just too depressed to put the thoughts together, sorry.
> Thanks,
> AndyI'll be around. Try writing little notes to yourself when the thoughts arise, and post when you get around to it.
Take care,
Lar
Posted by andys on August 2, 2003, at 17:33:35
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
Lar,
To answer your questions:
I take the acetylated tyrosine, because it’s supposed to be more bioavailable.
Is there an issue in taking tyrosine and phenylalanine not at the same time, so they don’t compete, crossing the blood-brain barrier? What’s your recommendation on when to take them?
Your mineral question: I’m taking 8 mg. zinc, and 50 mcg. Selenium.
I checked out TMG. My concern is that it is converted to SAMe, and in the past, SAM-e triggers hypomanic anxiety (like almost all serotonergic AD’s do to me). Do you think that a smallish dose (maybe 500 mg.) should be taken, to keep homocystine levels down, without risking the full effect of supplemental SAMe?
(The reason I’m so focused on catecholemines is that they give energy without triggering hypomania, whereas serotonergic substances, including SAMe and St. John’s Wart, rarely give energy, but always trigger hypomania.) (Dexedrine has never triggered hypomania, much to my pdocs amazement. It can actually balance out anxiety).
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Rickson Gracie on August 3, 2003, at 10:02:32
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
Mr Larry,
You seem well versed on things....Do you know anything about Selegiline? The products you mention are supposed to enhance the effects.Just curious if you knew about Selegiline?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 10:44:56
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » Larry Hoover, posted by Rickson Gracie on August 3, 2003, at 10:02:32
> Mr Larry,
> You seem well versed on things....Do you know anything about Selegiline? The products you mention are supposed to enhance the effects.Just curious if you knew about Selegiline?Selegiline is an irreversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase B, the form of MAO found mostly in the brain. By blocking MAO-B, selegeline will increase the effectiveness of "normal" release of neurotransmitters, by reducing the rate at which they are destroyed. That goes for dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, and others.
Selegiline also is believed to selectively inhibit dopamine reuptake, similar to how SSRIs inhibit serotonin reuptake.
Also, two of the metabolites of selegiline are amphetamine and methamphetamin, which have obvious stimulatory activity.
Taking precursors of dopamine (tyrosine or phenylalanine) increases the supply of dopamine. Taking selegiline keeps the supply of dopamine from being destroyed as quickly as it would otherwise be. So, yes, taking dopamine precursors would enhance the effect of selegiline.
Lar
Posted by Rickson Gracie on August 3, 2003, at 10:57:27
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » Rickson Gracie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 10:44:56
Mr.larry,
Wow,thanks for that answer!! DO you know anyything about chocolate love chemical in selegiline? Phenylethylamine? Are the effects real w/selegiline?
thanks
Posted by andys on August 3, 2003, at 16:15:13
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
Lar,
I just wanted to confirm my understanding that there’s no problem taking the tyrosine and phenylalanine together, correct? (I had it in my head that they competed at some level, so should be taken apart, which led to all my questions on the first posting).
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 21:50:59
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » Larry Hoover, posted by andys on August 3, 2003, at 16:15:13
> Lar,
> I just wanted to confirm my understanding that there’s no problem taking the tyrosine and phenylalanine together, correct? (I had it in my head that they competed at some level, so should be taken apart, which led to all my questions on the first posting).
> Thanks,
> AndyThey'll compete for access to the transporter across the blood-brain barrier, so it does make sense to take them separately, if only for cost-effectiveness.
You'll need somewhat more phenylalanine to produce an equivalent amount of dopamine from a particular dose of tyrosine, as PA has more products arising from it. But that's exactly why I usually advise using the racemic PA, called DLPA. Those other products can have beneficial effects, too.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:31:04
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 2, 2003, at 17:33:35
> Lar,
> To answer your questions:
> I take the acetylated tyrosine, because it’s supposed to be more bioavailable.Acetylation certainly changes the activity of e.g. choline, but I hadn't heard of any benefit from acetylation of tyrosine. I'll look into it.
> Is there an issue in taking tyrosine and phenylalanine not at the same time, so they don’t compete, crossing the blood-brain barrier? What’s your recommendation on when to take them?
I think they're largely interchangeable, but there's no point in taking them at the same time.
> Your mineral question: I’m taking 8 mg. zinc, and 50 mcg. Selenium.
You might want to increase both of those by as much as a factor of four.
> I checked out TMG. My concern is that it is converted to SAMe, and in the past, SAM-e triggers hypomanic anxiety (like almost all serotonergic AD’s do to me). Do you think that a smallish dose (maybe 500 mg.) should be taken, to keep homocystine levels down, without risking the full effect of supplemental SAMe?
You'll know if you're over-stimulated by TMG, but the dose at which that occurs is very different for different people. You have to try it, and pay attention to what happens.
When you take exogenous SAMe (i.e. from outside the body), you bypass all your body's regulatory processes. You can easily exceed the normal physiological concentration of SAMe this way, and SAMe may be found in places where it isn't normally present. If you promote the formation of endogenous SAMe (i.e. from inside the body), your natural control systems are still in place, making sure there isn't going to be too much SAMe formed, and it's in highest concentration where it's supposed to be.
> (The reason I’m so focused on catecholemines is that they give energy without triggering hypomania, whereas serotonergic substances, including SAMe and St. John’s Wart, rarely give energy, but always trigger hypomania.) (Dexedrine has never triggered hypomania, much to my pdocs amazement. It can actually balance out anxiety).
> Thanks,
> AndySounds a bit like the ADHD paradox. And, it's an excellent example of the need to try things to see what they do. Even your pdoc wouldn't have predicted your response to dexedrine, right?
Ame sans vie posted a link to an e-book that has some information you may find useful. The dose recommendations are conservative, in my humble opinion, but I would interpret that to be because the author is not ill. He's not treating an adverse situation. He's otherwise well.
There's a decent discussion of methyl donors (e.g. TMG), and a chapter on energy boosters.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 2, 2003, at 17:33:35
> Lar,
> To answer your questions:
> I take the acetylated tyrosine, because it’s supposed to be more bioavailable.Sorry, dude, but acetylated tyrosine is a non-starter. Acetylation does only one thing.....it enhances renal clearance of tyrosine. There is no evidence that any free tyrosine arises from the N-acetyl tyrosine.
In the following abstract, note that control subjects did not differ from the liver failure group on renal clearance of N-acetyl tyrosine, and neither group showed an increase in blood concentrations of tyrosine on the latter, either.
Hepatology. 1995 Apr;21(4):923-8.
Utilization of tyrosine-containing dipeptides and N-acetyl-tyrosine in hepatic failure.Druml W, Hubl W, Roth E, Lochs H.
Department of Medicine III, Vienna General Hospital, Austria.
The impact of hepatic dysfunction on the elimination and hydrolysis of three potential tyrosine sources for total parenteral nutrition, the dipeptides L-alanyl-L-tyrosine (Ala-Tyr) and glycyl-L-tyrosine (Gly-Tyr), and N-acetyl-L-tyrosine (Nac-Tyr) were evaluated in six patients with hepatic failure (five chronic, one acute) and seven healthy subjects. In controls, whole-body clearance (Cltot) of Ala-Tyr was higher than of Gly-Tyr (3,169 +/- 214 vs. 1,780 +/- 199 mL/kg/min, P < .01), and both exceeded clearance of Nac-Tyr (309 +/- 29 mL/kg/min, P > .01). Both dipeptides were hydrolyzed and released tyrosine immediately. In hepatic failure, elimination and hydrolysis of Ala-Tyr and Gly-Tyr were comparable to controls, but Cltot of Nac-Tyr was reduced (236 +/- 26 mL/kg/min). Neither in controls nor in patients an increase in plasma tyrosine concentration was seen after Nac-Tyr, and the major part of Nac-Tyr infused was lost in urine. The Cltot of tyrosine as evaluated after Ala-Tyr infusion (with the immediate release of tyrosine) was severely reduced in hepatic failure (152.7 +/- 38.4 vs. 484.4 +/- 41.4 mL/kg/min, P < .001) and half-life (kle) was retarded from 14.4 +/- 1.4 to 90.2 +/- 32.2 minutes (P < .03). The authors conclude that acute and chronic hepatic dysfunction does not affect elimination and hydrolysis of the dipeptides Ala-Tyr and Gly-Tyr and the constituent amino acids are released immediately. Nac-Tyr elimination was not grossly affected by hepatic failure, but neither in healthy subjects nor in hepatic failure patients was an increase of tyrosine seen. Both dipeptides but not Nac-Tyr may serve as a tyrosine source in parenteral nutrition. Moreover, by its rapid hydrolysis, the use of Ala-Tyr, for the first time, enables a simple rapid nonisotope evaluation of tyrosine kinetics for assessment of liver function.
Posted by Capri on August 5, 2003, at 22:27:58
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
Hi Larry,
Since all these questions are being asked about supplments I thought I shoot away.
I read that tyrosine is good for anxiety. I am trying to experiment with some natural remedies.What are your thoughts on tyrosine? How much do you need to take? Any other natural supplements you could recommend.
Thanks!
Capri
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 1:11:40
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
From reading Mind Boosters, if dopamine and norepinephrine are what you need, then these would appear to be the supplements to take:
1) L-phenylalanine
2) Vitamin B3 *or* NADH
3) Vitamin C
4) Vitamin B6 *or* PLP (pyridoxal phosphate)Three Beer Effect posted a while back that L-PEA crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily than tyrosine. D-PEA doesn't seem to be doing anything here. NADH and PLP are active co-enzymes of Vitamns B3 and B6 repsectively.
Links:
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_13.html
(check out Figure 13.1)
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_9.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:42:34
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by Capri on August 5, 2003, at 22:27:58
> Hi Larry,
>
> Since all these questions are being asked about supplments I thought I shoot away.I love questions.
> I read that tyrosine is good for anxiety. I am trying to experiment with some natural remedies.
Hmmm. Tyrosine may possibly make anxiety worse, too. Neurotransmitters can have contradictory effects because they do different things in different parts of the brain. If you consider the treatment of hyperactivity (ADHD) with stimulants, there *seems* to be a paradox, but obviously the brain is doing its thing. It's our thinking about the brain that is paradoxical.
> What are your thoughts on tyrosine? How much do you need to take? Any other natural supplements you could recommend.
I prefer DLPA (d-,l-phenylalanine) over tyrosine, because there are other products arising from the phenylalanine that may have calming and mood-elevating effects.
A reasonable dose of either would be in the range of 1-2 grams, on an empty stomach, preferably in the morning (because of possible stimulation). Some might argue that dose range is high, but you want to take enough to be clear about how you respond to it. Once you have that understanding, you can adjust the dose up or down.
For anxiety in general, I think niacinamide is very useful. It makes the GABA receptor more responsive to calming neurotranmission. You can take 500 mg four times a day.
> Thanks!
> CapriLar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:51:09
In reply to The Fantastic Four? L-PEA, NADH, C, and PLP, posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 1:11:40
> From reading Mind Boosters, if dopamine and norepinephrine are what you need, then these would appear to be the supplements to take:
>
> 1) L-phenylalanine
> 2) Vitamin B3 *or* NADH
> 3) Vitamin C
> 4) Vitamin B6 *or* PLP (pyridoxal phosphate)
>
> Three Beer Effect posted a while back that L-PEA crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily than tyrosine. D-PEA doesn't seem to be doing anything here. NADH and PLP are active co-enzymes of Vitamns B3 and B6 repsectively.I hope I don't sound picky, but PEA is short for phenethylamine, rather than phenylalanine. The latter is usually PA, or Ph.
D-PA does not go on to form tyrosine, but because of that, it is totally available for conversion to PEA. This also has the effect of increasing the proportion of L-PA converting to tyrosine, due to competition for the alternate pathway.
Recent research has also shown that D-PA blocks the breakdown of enkephalins, substances which are our body's natural ligands for what we call opiate receptors (in other words, they're really enkephalin receptors, but they were "discovered" because of our use of opiates).
I think DLPA has more "bang for the buck" than tyrosine.
Lar
Posted by Capri on August 6, 2003, at 8:05:34
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » Capri, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:42:34
Hi Lar,
Thanks for all that helpful info!
Can I Take these supplements with Klonopin??
Capri
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 9:02:47
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by Capri on August 6, 2003, at 8:05:34
> Hi Lar,
>
> Thanks for all that helpful info!You're very welcome.
> Can I Take these supplements with Klonopin??
Absolutely. Although I should probably at some point suggest that we're all so unique that anything is possible, the likelihood of an adverse interaction is very, very, small.
> Capri
All the best,
Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 11:49:32
In reply to Re: The Fantastic Four? L-PEA, NADH, C, and PLP » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:51:09
Thanks for straightening out the PA vs. PEA issue.
Do you have a references concerning the uses the body has for D-PA?
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 12:02:50
In reply to Re: The Fantastic Four? L-PEA, NADH, C, and PLP » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:51:09
When in doubt, Google it.
http://www.endotoxin.gmxhome.de/
Figure 5 is the key one here.
"The symptoms of parkinsonism are treated with the racemate DL-phenylalanine. L-phenylalanine increases the concentration of dopamine in the brain and D-phenylalanine the concentration of ß-phenylethylamine so that this treatment restores the balance between the phenethylamine-dopamine and the acetylcholine-serotonine-tryptamine side. DL-phenylalanine has no side effects like L-dopa and it is not toxic for the dopaminergic neurons."
"D-phenylalanine showed a therapeutic activity in PD, especially against rigiditiy, walking disability, speech difficulties and psychic depression, whereas its effect on tremor was not important. A combination of the amino acid with anticholinergic agents should be tried."
Posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
Hi Larry,
Being probably the newest addition to your fan club<g>...yep, I am amazed at your knowledge level too.
Wondering about acetylation..
Does one get an acetylated form of (x) by mixing vinegar with (x)?
I find your posts very interesting , especially now I have just added tyrosine into my mix of thyroid meds, vitamins and minerals.I have a long history..mostly chronic fatigue and really cold hands,feet. Also always craved meat. I could eat a steak 3 meals a day. Also high thirst (perhaps due to the high protein).
Tried hypoglycemic diets(after a GTT test, 1985, with normal fasting blood sugar, reactive hypoglycemia dropping to borderline absolute levels) no effect.
Also tried 5 years of various SSRI's(1995-2000) no good effect, some scary side effects...like hand tremour, eye tics, altered perception of traffic speed...I started on long history of thyroid meds Aug01 ...some improvements, some worsening of symptoms.
I came across a "post"< http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36074.1 >by someone who had added in phenteramine to their thyroid med mix hoping the dopamine would provide a missing bit of the picture. I thought of tyrosine..and that it too has a dopamine pathway..so I am trialling that.I am “starving” about 1/2 hour after I take say 7.5mcg of T3(slow release)..so I thought the dopamine in the tyrosine may block this “starvation” the T3 causes. Thyroid extract(contains T4 +T3 +) also causes an increase in hunger but not quite as pronounced..
I thought it looked like I was adding in only a bit of the picture and not the other bits..so I started adding in tyrosine to the mix to try to get some of the missing pathways..perhaps the dopamine to help with temperature and appetite suppression...and perhaps I needed to replace mor than the thyroid pathways if something was missing higher up in the chain.
The tyrosine appeared to help with the appetite and for the first 2 days just 500mg of tyrosine bought my body temp up about 1.2C to almost 37degrees..all day, although a sweat session around 4am in the morning managed to lower the temp again...both days.(stopped by adding in a tad of estradiol gel transdermally)
This temp rise only lasted for the first 2 days..on the 3rd, 4th day, it no longer seems to be working..darn
I will keep trying. I'm thinking I must have something wrong/missing I the way I break down protein or my body wouldn't have craved it so much all my life..so I need to find out where..hopefully by working backwards and replace the missing bits...right.
That is why I would favour trying tyrosine over phenylanaine for starters, less enzymes, links etc to go thru. If all the tyrsoine bits work, I guess then go back to the phenylanaine looking for more missing pieces..
I do have antiTPO, anti TG antibodies, a small thyroidwith nodules on ultrasound..which shows it has been struggling to keep up in my books..and when I was born my Mum had to give me antihistamines so I could breathe while sucking (little blue pills..phernergan I think)..so I do have something up with histamine response I guess tooI'm really struggling with all of this altrhough I have spent the past 2 1/2 years trying to research the net, like you said..a lot of stuff is pretty geekish and although I have figured out that "ase" on the end means enzyme, that's about it! I really need some courses, but I haven't found any so far to take me thru basic chemistry, biochem, physiol up to this level, lol.
Thaks for reading this,I know most detail has n been left out, ANY suggestions welcomed
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
In reply to tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
> Hi Larry,
> Being probably the newest addition to your fan club<g>...yep, I am amazed at your knowledge level too.Wow! I have a fan club. Coool!
> Wondering about acetylation..
> Does one get an acetylated form of (x) by mixing vinegar with (x)?Acetylation is the equivalent of adding an alcohol to a hydrocarbon (H- from the hydrocarbon, and HO- from the alcohol, forming water). When you react something with vinegar (acetic acid, or now called ethanoic acid), you end up with the acetate (or ethanoate). The latter would have oxygen atoms between the two alkyl groups. When you see the -yl suffix, there are no intervening oxygens. In real life, the acetyl group (CH3-CH2-) is probably added by a substitution reaction (H- slides off, CH3-CH2- slides on), regulated by an enzyme.
> I find your posts very interesting , especially now I have just added tyrosine into my mix of thyroid meds, vitamins and minerals.
>
> I have a long history..mostly chronic fatigue and really cold hands,feet.What's your body weight like? Over? Under?
>Also always craved meat. I could eat a steak 3 meals a day. Also high thirst (perhaps due to the high protein).
Thirst is an obvious sign of diabetes, too. You've been tested for that, I'm sure? Certain kinds of kidney problems increase thirst too.
> Tried hypoglycemic diets(after a GTT test, 1985, with normal fasting blood sugar, reactive hypoglycemia dropping to borderline absolute levels) no effect.
One consequence of reactive hypoglycemia is stimulation of the adrenal gland. That may complicate thyroid function, as adrenal secretions inhibit thyroid hormone release and conversion.
> Also tried 5 years of various SSRI's(1995-2000) no good effect, some scary side effects...like hand tremour, eye tics, altered perception of traffic speed...
I hated that last one very much. I have superb hand-eye coordination, and having my perception of speed altered was something I took very personally, like a fundamental rock-solid aspect of my being had been messed with (apart from the enhanced risk factor in traffic).
> I started on long history of thyroid meds Aug01 ...some improvements, some worsening of symptoms.
> I came across a "post"< http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36074.1 >by someone who had added in phenteramine to their thyroid med mix hoping the dopamine would provide a missing bit of the picture. I thought of tyrosine..and that it too has a dopamine pathway..so I am trialling that.About phentermine....just because someone has identified an effect of this drug, wherein a dopaminergic process in one control centre of the brain is activated, does not mean that the drug is a dopamine enhancer, in general. It's just one of the things it does. I know of people who cook on their car engines (on long road trips), but that's not what the engine is "doing".
I'm not criticizing your idea....you're following up on the dopamine regulatory effect on TRH....I'm just saying there's more to phentermine than that.
> I am “starving” about 1/2 hour after I take say 7.5mcg of T3(slow release)..so I thought the dopamine in the tyrosine may block this “starvation” the T3 causes. Thyroid extract(contains T4 +T3 +) also causes an increase in hunger but not quite as pronounced..
I'm a little unclear on the dosage schedule for the T3. Do you take it more than once in a given day? Even an extended release formulation is going to be a poor substitute for the body's production of T3; pills give concentration peaks and valleys, compared to relatively constant (or demand appropriate) T3 production by the organs.
> I thought it looked like I was adding in only a bit of the picture and not the other bits..so I started adding in tyrosine to the mix to try to get some of the missing pathways..perhaps the dopamine to help with temperature and appetite suppression...and perhaps I needed to replace mor than the thyroid pathways if something was missing higher up in the chain.
There are a huge number of interactions between the various glands and organs. It's going to take you some time and some experimentation to determine how you can help your body regulate itself so that you're more comfortable. I'm sure you can do it, but it may not be obvious just how you are going to accomplish it.
Serotonin inhibits thyroid function. Norepinephrine stimulates it. Leptin (hunger modulation) also changes thyoid activity, as does insulin. CRH (indirect adrenal modulator) shuts down T3 production, and so does cortisol. Immune activation (by e.g. cytokines or leukotrienes) can block T3 conversion. I'm just tossing out some ideas about different aspects of physiology that may be the root of your personal thyroid trouble. Which one(s)? <shrug> It's a detective story, and you're the plot.
> The tyrosine appeared to help with the appetite and for the first 2 days just 500mg of tyrosine bought my body temp up about 1.2C to almost 37degrees..all day, although a sweat session around 4am in the morning managed to lower the temp again...both days.(stopped by adding in a tad of estradiol gel transdermally)
> This temp rise only lasted for the first 2 days..on the 3rd, 4th day, it no longer seems to be working..darnDid you try a dose increase? 500 mg is really not very much tyrosine, in the greater scheme of things. Moreover, tyrosine is a direct precursor of levothyroxine (T4).
> I will keep trying. I'm thinking I must have something wrong/missing I the way I break down protein or my body wouldn't have craved it so much all my life..
That's possible. I'm an obligate carnivore, too. It may be the mineral content. Meat is full of zinc, and selenium, and so on.
About the digestive aspect.... For meat digestion, try taking bromelain (which also has immune modulatory effects), TMG, and B-12.
> so I need to find out where..hopefully by working backwards and replace the missing bits...right.
The thyroid enzymes that are core to normal thyroid function require selenium (as selenocysteine). If you're not already taking it, get some selenium yeast. Most selenium supplements are from selenium yeast, but I have seen some that mention selenate or selenite. Avoid the latter.
Selenium is also a neuroprotective antioxidant. Your body may be under massive oxidative stress from the chronic thyroid problems. It's possible your selenium is totally tied up elsewhere. Moreover, if you have amalgam fillings in your teeth, you may have high mercury exposure, which severely impacts selenium and all its enzymes.
The fact that you're needing to take T3 implicates selenium, at least indirectly (there are always other factors that may dominate), but the conversion of levothyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) via deiodinase (three types) requires selenium.
Another way to help protect your selenium (and to deal with oxidative stress in general), is to add in some alphalipoic acid. It's sometimes called the "universal antioxidant" because it is both lipid and water soluble, acts as both an antioxidant and antireductant, and helps recycle both vitamins C and E, enhancing their activities, as well.
If you're under oxidative stress (I really think you are), then fish oil will help restore membranes and receptors to their normal functional condition.
It is also possible (you mention chronic fatigue early on), that you would benefit from Enada NADH. It has been a nearly miraculous addition to my own regimen. It directly enhances energy production at the mitochondrial level.
> That is why I would favour trying tyrosine over phenylanaine for starters, less enzymes, links etc to go thru.
Only one less. And you lose the benefits that only accrue via alternative pathways available to phenylalanine. Not a big difference, perhaps, but you may want to do that experiment later.
> If all the tyrsoine bits work, I guess then go back to the phenylanaine looking for more missing pieces..
Hey, you're thinking like me.... <wink>
> I do have antiTPO, anti TG antibodies, a small thyroidwith nodules on ultrasound..which shows it has been struggling to keep up in my books..
You would benefit from any interventions that reduce your immune system hyper-reactivity. That begins by getting oxidative stress under control. Then, later, you get into further interventions, if they're still required.
>and when I was born my Mum had to give me antihistamines so I could breathe while sucking (little blue pills..phernergan I think)..so I do have something up with histamine response I guess too
I doubt you've carried anything over into adulthood, unless you're reactive to allergens. Even totally normal people get airway opening from antihistamines. That's one of the reasons they're banned in competitive athletics.
> I'm really struggling with all of this altrhough I have spent the past 2 1/2 years trying to research the net, like you said..a lot of stuff is pretty geekish and although I have figured out that "ase" on the end means enzyme, that's about it!That is way important! You have to learn some geek-speak. I bet you know more than that, too. You learn more and more, every time you look at these ideas.
>I really need some courses, but I haven't found any so far to take me thru basic chemistry, biochem, physiol up to this level, lol.
You're doing pretty well right now. Seriously.
> Thaks for reading this,I know most detail has n been left out, ANY suggestions welcomed
> JanMy pleasure. More questions welcomed.
Lar
Posted by Kacy on August 19, 2003, at 12:06:29
In reply to Re: tyrosine » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
I run cool, as well.
I haven't since I began Straterra in January. I didn't have to use sweats and sweaters around the house in cooler months and I'm finding out what it has been like for others to handle 100º in the shade.
Straterra is an NE uptake inhibitor.
Posted by andys on August 19, 2003, at 16:45:40
In reply to tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
I too am on Cytomel (T3) and am getting benefit from L-tyrosine and DLPA (Yes, larry, I found the non-acetyl version of tyrosine more effective, thanks).
I found an article that it is pertinent to the subject: It discusses the interplay of thyroid with the catacholemines (dopamine and norepinepherine). Although not stated in the article, it makes sense that supplements that support catecholemines might be supportive of best thyroid function. The site is The American College of NeuroPsychoPharmacology, at http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000097/CH095.html
You mentioned phentermine, it is the best antidepressant response I have EVER HAD! (but couldn't stay on it, due to insomnia and high blood pressure). As Larry mentioned, it was some ASPECT of the phentermine that helped. I sure wish I could figure out the aspect, since it would give me a future worth living.
Posted by andys on August 19, 2003, at 16:48:53
In reply to Re: tyrosine » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
Larry,
You've mentioned TMG before, and I even bought some, but haven't taken it yet, because I'm having trouble getting a grasp on just what it does. (I'm taking tyrosine and phenylalanine, in the hopes of increasing the catecholemines).
Thanks,
Andy
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