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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by colin wallace on June 6, 2003, at 7:54:28
Ron,
I've started taking NADH at 5mg on alternate days.I like it, it feels somewhat like a more 'refined'version of SAM-E to me.
So far, I get no irritability either.
I wanted to ask you about TMG though(you take this for NADH induced irritability don't you?)
I was just reading an article about TMG causing hyperactivity in autistic children, and that essentially, the demethylation process of TMG translates into increased Sam-e.
Given that SAM-E eventually sentr us both 'over the edge' with anger symptoms, I'm wondering whether TMG has this potential also?Or is this a more natural,'downstream' method of raising SAM levels perhaps?
I've lost the article unfortunately, and haven't had the time yet to look at TMG in depth.
What do you think?Col.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2003, at 8:37:30
In reply to TMGRon Hill, posted by colin wallace on June 6, 2003, at 7:54:28
Hey colin. I hope you don't mind if I stick my nose in here.
> I've started taking NADH at 5mg on alternate days.I like it, it feels somewhat like a more 'refined'version of SAM-E to me.
> So far, I get no irritability either.
> I wanted to ask you about TMG though(you take this for NADH induced irritability don't you?)This was a serendipitous discovery by Ron. It doesn't really flow from logic.
> I was just reading an article about TMG causing hyperactivity in autistic children, and that essentially, the demethylation process of TMG translates into increased Sam-e.
Indirectly. TMG increases the conversion of homocysteine to methionine, but there are other things that can happen to methionine than just formation of SAMe. Yes, you'll get an increase in SAMe, but I think other things, too.
> Given that SAM-E eventually sentr us both 'over the edge' with anger symptoms, I'm wondering whether TMG has this potential also?Or is this a more natural,'downstream' method of raising SAM levels perhaps?
From an anecdotal perspective, both Ron and I found that these substances act synergistically. Our inability to find a logical mechanism for this synergism ought not to stand in the way of recognizing that our mutual experience is the only factual evidence that we have. Empiricism trumps theory.
> I've lost the article unfortunately, and haven't had the time yet to look at TMG in depth.
> What do you think?
>
> Col.All I know (the fact part) is that taking two substances together, each one an activating and potentially irritating substance, produces a mellow synergism of clarity of function and higher fatigue threshold.
Lar
Posted by colin wallace on June 6, 2003, at 9:22:20
In reply to Re: TMGRon Hill » colin wallace, posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2003, at 8:37:30
Hey there Larry,
Thanks for your input here;your knowledge on this subject(subjective and otherwise)is much appreciated.Actually, I typically set more store by the subjective anecdote;if we can extrapolate something from scientific fact, fine.But that doesn't mean it will work, as we find all too often with antidepressants!!
If it works, it works,and that's good enough for me.
--------------------------------------->
>>> All I know (the fact part) is that taking two substances together, each one an activating and potentially irritating substance, produces a mellow synergism of clarity of function and higher fatigue threshold.How much do you take Lar?Do you think, in the case of NADH, that more would be needed in the acute stage than the long-term ?
And how do you think Folic Acid, as another dopamine precursor, would compare to NADH and TMG??Thanks again,
Col.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2003, at 9:54:59
In reply to Re: TMGRon Hill » Larry Hoover, posted by colin wallace on June 6, 2003, at 9:22:20
> Hey there Larry,
>
> Thanks for your input here;your knowledge on this subject(subjective and otherwise)is much appreciated.Actually, I typically set more store by the subjective anecdote;if we can extrapolate something from scientific fact, fine.But that doesn't mean it will work, as we find all too often with antidepressants!!
> If it works, it works,and that's good enough for me.Scientific knowledge may suggest that certain experiments be conducted. However, the results of the experiment are not dependent on the knowledge base. Quite right.
Our open-label experimental pool has a low population (N=2), but at least we're consistent.
> --------------------------------------->
> >>> All I know (the fact part) is that taking two substances together, each one an activating and potentially irritating substance, produces a mellow synergism of clarity of function and higher fatigue threshold.
>
> How much do you take Lar?Totally on a gut-level "need" assessment (not calendar-related), I'd say I use between 5 and 10 mg/week NADH, and I generally take one gram TMG simultaneously.
>Do you think, in the case of NADH, that more would be needed in the acute stage than the long-term ?
That's what we've found, that there seems to be a saturation process occurring. Early on, your body can handle a large amount, but only until you become replete? I'm not certain that's what's happening, and thus the question mark. Anyway, after that, you only need take small amounts to saturate again.
> And how do you think Folic Acid, as another dopamine precursor, would compare to NADH and TMG??
Strictly speaking, folate is not a precursor, though it is prerequisite. Folate, or folic acid, as absorbed from the diet or supplements, is not active. There are a number of different enzymes which transform folate into active molecular structures; there are many such structures, e.g. the various biopterins. In the activated form, the folates will "encourage" the appropriate enzymes to act in transforming e.g. tyrosine into l-dopa. Folate is a co-enzyme.
It is my opinion that supplementation with a B-complex should be assumed, alongside NADH or niacinamide supplementation.
Niacinamide promotes endogenous (within your body) NADH formation, so niacinamide may also serve to "stretch" the period of responsiveness which follows NADH supplementation, thought that would be hard to "prove".
> Thanks again,
>
> Col.My pleasure.
Lar
Posted by Beastress on June 7, 2003, at 0:41:50
In reply to Re: TMGRon Hill » colin wallace, posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2003, at 9:54:59
Larry, Ron, Colin
I noticed that there are two in the experimental pool for enada NADH/TMG. I don't know if this info has any relevance for you but I'll toss it into the pool and see if it floats. I've been taking 5mg per day (7.5 when I can afford it) of NADH for fatigue, muscle spasms, brain fog. Seems to help me a bit with depression resistance, too. Its been profoundly helpful, but I think the best dose for me may be as much as 10-15mg per day. I notice pretty much immediately when I don't take it. I tried 500mg of TMG but noticed really loud tinnitus and a low-grade panicky feeling. Lots of supplements create this reaction for me (melatonin, 5HTP are much worse, too many B vitamins will do it too). I give it a few weeks and try the TMG again and see if the same thing happens. Thanks for all your info and help.Leigh
Posted by Ron Hill on June 7, 2003, at 22:54:19
In reply to TMGRon Hill, posted by colin wallace on June 6, 2003, at 7:54:28
Hey Colin,
> I've started taking NADH at 5mg on alternate days.I like it, it feels somewhat like a more 'refined'version of SAM-E to me.
I agree. However, I have a hunch that your dosage might be too high for long-term use. You might want to order some 2.5 mg tablets and be ready to titrate your dosage in the downward direction if it starts to make you irritable. On the other hand, I may be wrong and 5mg on alternate days might be fine for long-term use.
I'm amazed at how little (2.5 mg once or twice a week) it takes to keep me out of depression. But when it wears off, I know it; my motivation declines and I start to fall into depression.
> So far, I get no irritability either.
Cool. For me it took ten days at 10 mg/day before the irritability showed up.
> I wanted to ask you about TMG though (you take this for NADH induced irritability don't you?)
The benefit I find in adding TMG is that it seems to extend the time period of effectiveness for the Enada NADH. In other words, without the TMG, a 2.5 mg dose of Enada NADH loses its effectiveness after about four days. But with TMG, it lasts a full week. Therefore, TMG indirectly reduces my irritability by reducing my Enada NADH dosing frequency.
However, while you were on holiday on the coast (I think you said the coast), John-John (johnj) told me about the efficacy of niacinamide for treating irritability. We didn’t have any niacinamide in the house, so I tried niacin. It is incredible! 250 – 375 mg/day of niacin (divided into two or three doses throughout the day) abates my irritability. I’ll come back to this topic in a moment, but I bring it up here because the niacin allows me to increase the Enada NADH dosing back up to twice a week (when I feel the need to do so) without getting irritable.
> I was just reading an article about TMG causing hyperactivity in autistic children, and that essentially, the demethylation process of TMG translates into increased Sam-e. Given that SAM-E eventually sentr us both 'over the edge' with anger symptoms, I'm wondering whether TMG has this potential also?
You and I think along the same lines. I asked Larry this same question when I was considering giving TMG a trial. Larry’s answer to me was that the only real way to find out is to try it. I’m in my seventh week of the TMG trial and so far so good. But SAM-e worked well for five months before it blew up on me, so time will tell.
> Or is this a more natural,'downstream' method of raising SAM levels perhaps?
My thoughts exactly, except I’d say “upstream” instead of “downstream” (but that probably depends on which way your row boat is headed).
> I've lost the article unfortunately, and haven't had the time yet to look at TMG in depth. What do you think?
I think it is probably worth a trial. It ain’t gonna hurt ya, and it’s affordable.
Okay back to the niacin/niacinamide discussion. I plan to try niacinamide soon because it is reported to be even better than niacin in treating irritability. But niacin is working so well for me that I don’t want to take any chance of rocking the boat too soon.
I'm convinced that niacin is doing this incredible job of treating my irritability via improved serotonin production. As I understand it, if the human body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 (niacin) from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that 60 tryptophan molecules are consumed for every B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be freed up for the production of additional serotonin. I believe that it is this increased production of serotonin that is abating the irritability (flash rage, sever impatience, etc).
I love the increased motivation, drive, and focus that comes with improved dopamine pathway functioning. For example, Enada NADH increases the production of dopamine and I love it. However, if my dopamine levels get out ahead of my serotonin levels, I get irritable (GRRRRRRRRR!). This is one of my naive pharmacological explanations which may or may not have any semblance of fact. But what I do know is when I raise serotonin levels (using SSRIs, or other means) the irritability subsides. And now B3 is doing this for me (or so my theory goes) without the adverse side effects of the SSRIs. Of course, even if my hypothesis is correct, B3 supplementation will likely only help those folks with lower-than-optimal levels of B3.
As an aside, if my serotonin gets out ahead of my dopamine (as occurs when I take an SSRI), then I lose my motivation and my emotions become blunted. More of my pharmacological musing which may or may not be correct.
Colin, it is my understanding that your irritability problems are currently under control with your current med combo (Lamictal and 10 mg/day average of Prozac). And that’s great. If, however, irritable mood states become problematic for you in the future, I beseech you to give niacinamide or niacin a trial.
So as it stands right now, I’m good to go. Lithobid for my hypomania, Enada NADH and TMG for depression, and niacin for my dysphoric mood states. Niacin also provides some antidepressant effects so it really belongs in two of my categories.
How are you doing?
-- Ron
Posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 23:48:15
In reply to Re: TMG » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on June 7, 2003, at 22:54:19
Hi Ron,
Do you have any research to back up the:
"As I understand it, if the human body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 (niacin) from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that 60 tryptophan molecules are consumed for every B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be freed up for the production of additional serotonin."
Also do you know if niacinamide works in the same way. Of freeing up trypto from sero production? I am thinking that the niacinamide (500mg) is more of a benzo effect, agonist or antagonist style.
This would mean that the you and Lar are actually handling the irratability from NADH in different ways.
Cheers> Hey Colin,
>
> > I've started taking NADH at 5mg on alternate days.I like it, it feels somewhat like a more 'refined'version of SAM-E to me.
>
> I agree. However, I have a hunch that your dosage might be too high for long-term use. You might want to order some 2.5 mg tablets and be ready to titrate your dosage in the downward direction if it starts to make you irritable. On the other hand, I may be wrong and 5mg on alternate days might be fine for long-term use.
>
> I'm amazed at how little (2.5 mg once or twice a week) it takes to keep me out of depression. But when it wears off, I know it; my motivation declines and I start to fall into depression.
>
> > So far, I get no irritability either.
>
> Cool. For me it took ten days at 10 mg/day before the irritability showed up.
>
> > I wanted to ask you about TMG though (you take this for NADH induced irritability don't you?)
>
> The benefit I find in adding TMG is that it seems to extend the time period of effectiveness for the Enada NADH. In other words, without the TMG, a 2.5 mg dose of Enada NADH loses its effectiveness after about four days. But with TMG, it lasts a full week. Therefore, TMG indirectly reduces my irritability by reducing my Enada NADH dosing frequency.
>
> However, while you were on holiday on the coast (I think you said the coast), John-John (johnj) told me about the efficacy of niacinamide for treating irritability. We didn’t have any niacinamide in the house, so I tried niacin. It is incredible! 250 – 375 mg/day of niacin (divided into two or three doses throughout the day) abates my irritability. I’ll come back to this topic in a moment, but I bring it up here because the niacin allows me to increase the Enada NADH dosing back up to twice a week (when I feel the need to do so) without getting irritable.
>
> > I was just reading an article about TMG causing hyperactivity in autistic children, and that essentially, the demethylation process of TMG translates into increased Sam-e. Given that SAM-E eventually sentr us both 'over the edge' with anger symptoms, I'm wondering whether TMG has this potential also?
>
> You and I think along the same lines. I asked Larry this same question when I was considering giving TMG a trial. Larry’s answer to me was that the only real way to find out is to try it. I’m in my seventh week of the TMG trial and so far so good. But SAM-e worked well for five months before it blew up on me, so time will tell.
>
> > Or is this a more natural,'downstream' method of raising SAM levels perhaps?
>
> My thoughts exactly, except I’d say “upstream” instead of “downstream” (but that probably depends on which way your row boat is headed).
>
> > I've lost the article unfortunately, and haven't had the time yet to look at TMG in depth. What do you think?
>
> I think it is probably worth a trial. It ain’t gonna hurt ya, and it’s affordable.
>
> Okay back to the niacin/niacinamide discussion. I plan to try niacinamide soon because it is reported to be even better than niacin in treating irritability. But niacin is working so well for me that I don’t want to take any chance of rocking the boat too soon.
>
> I'm convinced that niacin is doing this incredible job of treating my irritability via improved serotonin production. As I understand it, if the human body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 (niacin) from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that 60 tryptophan molecules are consumed for every B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be freed up for the production of additional serotonin. I believe that it is this increased production of serotonin that is abating the irritability (flash rage, sever impatience, etc).
>
> I love the increased motivation, drive, and focus that comes with improved dopamine pathway functioning. For example, Enada NADH increases the production of dopamine and I love it. However, if my dopamine levels get out ahead of my serotonin levels, I get irritable (GRRRRRRRRR!). This is one of my naive pharmacological explanations which may or may not have any semblance of fact. But what I do know is when I raise serotonin levels (using SSRIs, or other means) the irritability subsides. And now B3 is doing this for me (or so my theory goes) without the adverse side effects of the SSRIs. Of course, even if my hypothesis is correct, B3 supplementation will likely only help those folks with lower-than-optimal levels of B3.
>
> As an aside, if my serotonin gets out ahead of my dopamine (as occurs when I take an SSRI), then I lose my motivation and my emotions become blunted. More of my pharmacological musing which may or may not be correct.
>
> Colin, it is my understanding that your irritability problems are currently under control with your current med combo (Lamictal and 10 mg/day average of Prozac). And that’s great. If, however, irritable mood states become problematic for you in the future, I beseech you to give niacinamide or niacin a trial.
>
> So as it stands right now, I’m good to go. Lithobid for my hypomania, Enada NADH and TMG for depression, and niacin for my dysphoric mood states. Niacin also provides some antidepressant effects so it really belongs in two of my categories.
>
> How are you doing?
>
> -- Ron
>
>
>
Posted by Ron Hill on June 8, 2003, at 17:35:13
In reply to Re: TMG » Ron Hill, posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 23:48:15
Hi Sample,
> Do you have any research to back up the:
>> "As I understand it, if the human body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 (niacin) from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that 60 tryptophan molecules are consumed for every B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be freed up for the production of additional serotonin."I’ve read it several places, here is one of them:
http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=Page-pt=General-pageId=103
Niacin can be made in the body from the amino acid tryptophan. About 60 mg of tryptophan are needed to produce 1 mg niacin. Requirements are usually expressed as niacin equivalents or NEs. 1 NE is either 1 mg niacin or 60 mg tryptophan.
> Also do you know if niacinamide works in the same way. Of freeing up trypto from sero production?I don’t know.
> I am thinking that the niacinamide (500mg) is more of a benzo effect, agonist or antagonist style.
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T44289.html
> This would mean that the you and Lar are actually handling the irratability from NADH in different ways.Not all that different. We both use TMG and I use niacin, whereas, I think Larry uses niacinamide. But you’d need to ask him to be sure.
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on June 10, 2003, at 11:38:06
In reply to Re: TMG » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on June 7, 2003, at 22:54:19
> Hey Colin,
>
>
> I agree. However, I have a hunch that your dosage might be too high for long-term use. You might want to order some 2.5 mg tablets and be ready to titrate your dosage in the downward direction if it starts to make you irritable. On the other hand, I may be wrong and 5mg on alternate days might be fine for long-term use.Ron,
>>>You were right actually;yesterday, I became extremely fatigued and irritable in the evening on NADH.Strange on both counts- the fatigue thing mystifies me-bit of a paradox?!
Also, I take it in the early AM, but don't really feel the 'buzz' until around 5pm.
Think I'll back off for a few days, and maybe try 5mg twice weekly(can't find any 2.5mg here in UK).Perhaps I've reached that 'replete' stage you and Larry described earlier.
John-John (johnj) told me about the efficacy of niacinamide for treating irritability. We didn’t have any niacinamide in the house, so I tried niacin. It is incredible! 250 – 375 mg/day of niacin (divided into two or three doses throughout the day) abates my irritability. I’ll come back to this topic in a moment, but I bring it up here because the niacin allows me to increase the Enada NADH dosing back up to twice a week (when I feel the need to do so) without getting irritable.>>>I'll trundle off down to the health store and grab some when I'm in town next!
> I’m in my seventh week of the TMG trial and so far so good. But SAM-e worked well for five months before it blew up on me, so time will tell.>>>Well, look on the bright side:Sam-e blew up on you around a month before it did me , so if (God forbid) you do happen to fly off the edge this time, at least you'll be first, and I'll get plenty of warning to discontinue!!!!! (what are friends for??!)
>
>
> Colin, it is my understanding that your irritability problems are currently under control with your current med combo (Lamictal and 10 mg/day average of Prozac). And that’s great. If, however, irritable mood states become problematic for you in the future, I beseech you to give niacinamide or niacin a trial.Yup, the Prozac has really bolstered my Lamictal, and evened out my temper-spells.It's been around 9 weeks for me now too , but what an improvement.I do however have a little stash of lithium in reserve, should any untoward anger crop up.So far though, Prozac = greatly improved mood, reduced anger, even-temper.
I'm praying this will last!Glad you're doing well too.
Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 10, 2003, at 13:33:33
In reply to Re: TMG » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on June 10, 2003, at 11:38:06
Hi Colin,
> You were right actually;yesterday, I became extremely fatigued and irritable in the evening on NADH.Strange on both counts- the fatigue thing mystifies me-bit of a paradox?!
Yeah, neither do I understand the pharmacology behind the fatigue. In my case, too much Enada NADH made me VERY sleepy-tired (in addition to irritable) but this sounds different than the fatigue you experienced.
> Also, I take it in the early AM, but don't really feel the 'buzz' until around 5pm.
I find it interesting how the same substance can affect people so differently. I feel the effects within a couple minutes of taking it. This rapid response does not make sense to me given the fact that I am taking the enteric coated tablets. But I know it's not a placebo effect issue.
> Think I'll back off for a few days, and maybe try 5mg twice weekly(can't find any 2.5mg here in UK).Perhaps I've reached that 'replete' stage you and Larry described earlier.
Here’s where I buy it. I’m sure there are other good on-line stores as well:
http://www.iherb.com/enada.html
> Well, look on the bright side:Sam-e blew up on you around a month before it did me , so if (God forbid) you do happen to fly off the edge this time, at least you'll be first, and I'll get plenty of warning to discontinue!!!!! (what are friends for??!)I’ll be sure to sound the alarm for ya, Colin. Kinda like the canary in the coal mine, ay? In case of a disaster, I just hope this canary is able to crawl to the keyboard to issue the warning to my friend Colin.
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on June 10, 2003, at 17:14:12
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on June 10, 2003, at 13:33:33
to hear you both are doing well. I am somewhat stabilized on 15 mg of remeron for sleep. Sleep is a key for me and mental functioning. I am looking to try some TMG and/or Enada down the road a bit. SAM-E just made me nervous and a jerk to be around. I have been trying to read a lot for pleasure and divert my attention to any down mood. Saw a couselor last week and had a good talk and will continue. I have never delved into that arena before so will see how it turns out. Be well guys
johnj
Posted by colin wallace on June 11, 2003, at 3:22:51
In reply to HI Guys, Good , posted by johnj on June 10, 2003, at 17:14:12
> to hear you both are doing well. I am somewhat stabilized on 15 mg of remeron for sleep. Sleep is a key for me and mental functioning. I am looking to try some TMG and/or Enada down the road a bit. SAM-E just made me nervous and a jerk to be around. I have been trying to read a lot for pleasure and divert my attention to any down mood. Saw a couselor last week and had a good talk and will continue. I have never delved into that arena before so will see how it turns out. Be well guys
>
> johnj
Hey there John,Glad to hear you're holding the fort.How are you finding Remeron?(didn't you try it once before??)
I found it to be the first med. to have any impact at all on my (once)severe anxiety, and it helped a great deal with my depression also.I was up to 60mg at one point, and wandering around as though I were heavily anaesthetised
for a month or so!
Took me months to get used to the stuff, and I reckon 30mg would have suited me, had I been on a concomitant mood stabilizer-without one of course, you can guess the results!!
I envy you with the counselling;I could really have used that when I was seriously ill and totally isolated.I'm sure it will help somewhat.Cheers,
Col.
Posted by johnj on June 11, 2003, at 9:57:05
In reply to JohnJohn,Remeron » johnj, posted by colin wallace on June 11, 2003, at 3:22:51
Hey Col,
Yes, I tried it again since I just couldn't sleep. I popped a 30 mg and had a good couple of weeks, but it was really rough with the sponge brain. I was able to converse and my language seemed to improve, but the pressure behind the forehead was too much.
So, I went down to 15 mg and almost all the head troubles have vanished. I do have some breathing difficulty in the sense it feels like my stomach muscles are tense and I sometimes get a little winded when I talk(found this is a rare side effect). It is far better than dragging my backside around like a zombie so I will stay at 15 with the dreaded TCA. I sometimes wonder if they don't interact well together but the only way is to get off it and right now I am not ready for that. Sleep feels good. I actually get sleepy like I did when I was 22. Getting up can be rough though.
The main thing is my body is reacting different than when I took it the first time. I should have tried 15 mg way back when. I had tapered to 15 when I went off it over a year ago but only for two days and that is exactly how long it took me to adjust to the lowering this time. The third day I felt pretty good.
I am glad to hear you are still doing well. It gives me hope and comfort to hear my cyberbuddies doing well :)
Now if I could sneak in a Guinness.....but I am not going to push my luck.
One more thing I have felt. When I went back on remeron I came to the realization that it is a biochemical problem. Going from feeling like snail dung to functional in a few days is great and yet somewhat scary at the same time. I think you get what I mean. I will try some counseling and see if that will help. I have been reading some books by Dr. Herbert Benson after seeing a tv program. I will see if I can slowly improve my health with attitude, which directly affects my wacky chemistry. The meds allow me to think out of the box. I probably could do OK without counseling, but hope it adds a dimension and increase my chances at recovery even more.
Sorry for the rant..
Take care and behave ;)
johnnyj
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