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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 62. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jumpy on April 7, 2003, at 5:45:34
Hey Mitch/Everyone,
Yes, I am back ... feeling so much better on nardil. Mitch, can I ask you a couple of questions ...
1. Can Caffeine induce hypomania?
2. Due you have a mood chart you could email me (calmblue667@aol.com)?Any advise to mood charting (like stop caffeine or keep meds stable, etc.)?
Thank you very much,
Jumpy
Posted by Ritch on April 7, 2003, at 9:54:22
In reply to Mitch-Mood Charting, Caffeine (or anyone else), posted by jumpy on April 7, 2003, at 5:45:34
> Hey Mitch/Everyone,
>
> Yes, I am back ... feeling so much better on nardil. Mitch, can I ask you a couple of questions ...
>
> 1. Can Caffeine induce hypomania?
> 2. Due you have a mood chart you could email me (calmblue667@aol.com)?
>
> Any advise to mood charting (like stop caffeine or keep meds stable, etc.)?
>
> Thank you very much,
>
> JumpyJumpy, you can download one at http://www.psycheducation.org I prefer desk calendars. Right now, I am using a Risperdal calendar (because it is smaller) that my pdoc gave me. If you are in the process of changing medications, I would continue drinking coffee like you always do-that way stopping coffee doesn't lead you to think a medication isn't working or causing a side effect that it wouldn't have otherwise.
Posted by jumpy on April 7, 2003, at 19:18:47
In reply to Re: Mitch-Mood Charting, Caffeine (or anyone else) » jumpy, posted by Ritch on April 7, 2003, at 9:54:22
Jumpy, you can download one at http://www.psycheducation.org I prefer desk calendars. Right now, I am using a Risperdal calendar (because it is smaller) that my pdoc gave me. If you are in the process of changing medications, I would continue drinking coffee like you always do-that way stopping coffee doesn't lead you to think a medication isn't working or causing a side effect that it wouldn't have otherwise.
Thanks Mitch ... for some reason my "word processor" doesn't display and print the psycheducation's mood chart correctly ... I guess I will make one myself. Jumpy
Posted by noa on April 7, 2003, at 19:46:22
In reply to Re: Mitch-Mood Charting, Caffeine (or anyone else) » Ritch, posted by jumpy on April 7, 2003, at 19:18:47
Thanks for the link. Looks like a great site!
Posted by Ritch on April 7, 2003, at 22:13:29
In reply to Re: Mitch-Mood Charting, Caffeine (or anyone else) » Ritch, posted by jumpy on April 7, 2003, at 19:18:47
> Jumpy, you can download one at http://www.psycheducation.org I prefer desk calendars. Right now, I am using a Risperdal calendar (because it is smaller) that my pdoc gave me. If you are in the process of changing medications, I would continue drinking coffee like you always do-that way stopping coffee doesn't lead you to think a medication isn't working or causing a side effect that it wouldn't have otherwise.
>
> Thanks Mitch ... for some reason my "word processor" doesn't display and print the psycheducation's mood chart correctly ... I guess I will make one myself. JumpyFWIW, the type of mood chart that is available online that you see is something you would more likely encounter as an inpatient (it just intuitively seems that way to me anyhow). It just doesn't fit my right- brained way of looking at things very well. For real, try just going to Staples or Wal-Mart or someplace and get one of those cheap big-assed desk calendars. Just write in your meds and their doses on the lines for each day. I just rate my mood with a +,++ or a -,-- on days that seem to need "remarking". If I feel unusally tense, hostile, or have trouble sleeping, I just note it with a special mark. Then you have got a ready-made printed record that you can save and refer to. If you use color-coded markers for things that helps make it more intuitive as well. If you like (and your cycles are long enough), you can thumbtack the peeled off pages on a wall and scan through them looking for patterns. You may be surprised at what you discover....
Posted by Ritch on April 7, 2003, at 22:15:51
In reply to Re: Mitch-Mood Charting, Caffeine (or anyone else), posted by noa on April 7, 2003, at 19:46:22
> Thanks for the link. Looks like a great site!
>
>Hi Noa, got a question for you about the Carlson's fishoil. I've noticed that when my bottle is getting close to the bottom the oil is starting to look cloudy and not taste quite as clean. Have you had trouble with this? I'm doubling up on the dosage just to get rid of the bottle, before I start on a fresh one. I haven't checked for any expiry date just yet..
Posted by noa on April 8, 2003, at 19:20:55
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question » noa, posted by Ritch on April 7, 2003, at 22:15:51
Yes, me too. I refrigerate it, and I assume you do, too. I also noticed that it is very thick at the bottom and clings to the bottom of the bottle when it gets that low. I was thinking that there are solids in suspension in the oil, especially when cold---although supposedly the polyunsaturated fats are supposed to be liquid even at cold temps because they are more "flexible" in their structure of long chains, as opposed to the more rigid oils that are used in prepared foods, because they stay the same at different temperatures and therefore last longer on the shelf--or am I getting that part wrong? OR maybe fish oil is not 100% long chain polyunsaturated? I have to peek at the bottle--I don't remember. Ie, maybe there is some amount of less polyunsaturated fat mixed in with the EPA and DHA?
Well, anyway, I have been suspecting that there are some solids in suspension, so I have been shaking it up before taking it. Interesting question. Maybe someone else can help us out with this one.
Posted by noa on April 8, 2003, at 21:58:10
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by noa on April 8, 2003, at 19:20:55
Ritch, I did check the label. Each teaspoonful of the Carlson's fish oil has 4 gms of fat: 2 gms of polyunsaturated (1600 mg. of which are Omega-3's), 1 gm of saturated, and 1 gm of monounsaturated.
My guess is that the saturated and monounsaturated may solidify somewhat in colder temperatures. I think olive oil is a monounsaturated and I know olive oil gels in the fridge.
I am also going to guess that if they solidify, the liquid becomes a suspension, and the solids gravitate to the bottom, at least somewhat. And, that as the amount of fish oil in the bottle lessens, we are seeing more of the solids.
If this is correct, I would assume that shaking the bottle is a good solution (no pun intended!) to the problem.
Or, is it possible also that if we wanted to we could separate out the gelled parts from the parts that remain liquid, and that these would be higher in concentration of Omega-3's? Hmmm...
I certainly am no chemist, so I would love to hear from the more scientifically-minded posters on board whether my guesses are reasonable or not.
I guess I could also email the company to ask them about it, too.
Thanks for asking the question--you have me intrigued now.
Posted by Ritch on April 8, 2003, at 22:38:39
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by noa on April 8, 2003, at 21:58:10
> Ritch, I did check the label. Each teaspoonful of the Carlson's fish oil has 4 gms of fat: 2 gms of polyunsaturated (1600 mg. of which are Omega-3's), 1 gm of saturated, and 1 gm of monounsaturated.
>
> My guess is that the saturated and monounsaturated may solidify somewhat in colder temperatures. I think olive oil is a monounsaturated and I know olive oil gels in the fridge.
>
> I am also going to guess that if they solidify, the liquid becomes a suspension, and the solids gravitate to the bottom, at least somewhat. And, that as the amount of fish oil in the bottle lessens, we are seeing more of the solids.
>
> If this is correct, I would assume that shaking the bottle is a good solution (no pun intended!) to the problem.
>
> Or, is it possible also that if we wanted to we could separate out the gelled parts from the parts that remain liquid, and that these would be higher in concentration of Omega-3's? Hmmm...
>
> I certainly am no chemist, so I would love to hear from the more scientifically-minded posters on board whether my guesses are reasonable or not.
>
> I guess I could also email the company to ask them about it, too.
>
> Thanks for asking the question--you have me intrigued now.
Hi, thanks for responding. The solids are kind of like wax that is floating in fresh honey or something. I also wonder if I filtered that stuff out if it would make the fishoil better. I've noticed the last few teaspoons I have been taking are starting to get more "waxy" and "oily" tasting because of the solids. Hmmmm. What about shaking up the bottle before each dose and after it gets poured into the teaspoon, *heating* the teaspoon to dissolve the solids? You know there is one thing that I don't quite understand: IF they keep the stuff on the shelf unrefrigerated, why can't you just keep it unrefrigerated while you use it up? Do they fill the bottle in the presence of an unoxygenated atmosphere or something? :) I can't detect any rancidity or fishy flavor at all, just waxiness.
Posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 4:10:32
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question » noa, posted by Ritch on April 8, 2003, at 22:38:39
Heating is supposed to change the structure of the fatty acids in a way that lessens their benefit.
I assume the need to refrigerate has to do with exposure to air, but I don't know how it is bottled. OTOH, the type of cap on the bottle is differnt than most, and when you open it there seems to be kind of small version of the effect (sound, pressure) that you get when opening vacuum sealed products.
Posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 9:55:41
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 4:10:32
> Heating is supposed to change the structure of the fatty acids in a way that lessens their benefit.
>
> I assume the need to refrigerate has to do with exposure to air, but I don't know how it is bottled. OTOH, the type of cap on the bottle is differnt than most, and when you open it there seems to be kind of small version of the effect (sound, pressure) that you get when opening vacuum sealed products.I think I found out something that will work. I tried taking the bottle out of the fridge and running *mildly warm* water over it while I shook it-just long enough to get the solids to *dissolve*. Then I poured a teaspoon of oil out and put it back in the fridge. I think it will be OK. My fridge runs a little on the cold side-I sometimes get some ice crystals in cottage cheese (i.e.). I think I am just keeping it *too* cold.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 12:12:57
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by noa on April 8, 2003, at 21:58:10
> Ritch, I did check the label. Each teaspoonful of the Carlson's fish oil has 4 gms of fat: 2 gms of polyunsaturated (1600 mg. of which are Omega-3's), 1 gm of saturated, and 1 gm of monounsaturated.
>
> My guess is that the saturated and monounsaturated may solidify somewhat in colder temperatures. I think olive oil is a monounsaturated and I know olive oil gels in the fridge.
>
> I am also going to guess that if they solidify, the liquid becomes a suspension, and the solids gravitate to the bottom, at least somewhat. And, that as the amount of fish oil in the bottle lessens, we are seeing more of the solids.
>
> If this is correct, I would assume that shaking the bottle is a good solution (no pun intended!) to the problem.
>
> Or, is it possible also that if we wanted to we could separate out the gelled parts from the parts that remain liquid, and that these would be higher in concentration of Omega-3's? Hmmm...
>
> I certainly am no chemist, so I would love to hear from the more scientifically-minded posters on board whether my guesses are reasonable or not.Your explanation is probably correct. You're observing a physical process, not a chemical one. The properties of the different triglycerides in the bottle are not identical. In the cold of the fridge, some condense more readily than others. When condensed, they're denser, and gravity will separate them out. Yes, you're decanting the "better" triglycerides first.
The sound of hissing air on opening the bottle may be due to a chemical process, i.e. the oxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids. The gas phase will lose oxygen, reducing the pressure inside the bottle. You may want to add some vitamin E (just dump a couple gelcaps worth into the bottle). The vitamin E will get nailed first, helping to protect the fish oils.\
Lar
Posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 13:12:21
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 12:12:57
> > Ritch, I did check the label. Each teaspoonful of the Carlson's fish oil has 4 gms of fat: 2 gms of polyunsaturated (1600 mg. of which are Omega-3's), 1 gm of saturated, and 1 gm of monounsaturated.
> >
> > My guess is that the saturated and monounsaturated may solidify somewhat in colder temperatures. I think olive oil is a monounsaturated and I know olive oil gels in the fridge.
> >
> > I am also going to guess that if they solidify, the liquid becomes a suspension, and the solids gravitate to the bottom, at least somewhat. And, that as the amount of fish oil in the bottle lessens, we are seeing more of the solids.
> >
> > If this is correct, I would assume that shaking the bottle is a good solution (no pun intended!) to the problem.
> >
> > Or, is it possible also that if we wanted to we could separate out the gelled parts from the parts that remain liquid, and that these would be higher in concentration of Omega-3's? Hmmm...
> >
> > I certainly am no chemist, so I would love to hear from the more scientifically-minded posters on board whether my guesses are reasonable or not.
>
> Your explanation is probably correct. You're observing a physical process, not a chemical one. The properties of the different triglycerides in the bottle are not identical. In the cold of the fridge, some condense more readily than others. When condensed, they're denser, and gravity will separate them out. Yes, you're decanting the "better" triglycerides first.
>
> The sound of hissing air on opening the bottle may be due to a chemical process, i.e. the oxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids. The gas phase will lose oxygen, reducing the pressure inside the bottle. You may want to add some vitamin E (just dump a couple gelcaps worth into the bottle). The vitamin E will get nailed first, helping to protect the fish oils.\
>
> Lar
>Larry, would bringing the temp of the fishoil up to around 80 or so just for a few minutes every day hurt anything (so I can take an evenly mixed dose of oil)?
Posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:50:25
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 12:12:57
Thanks, Larry.
It doesn't make the hissing sound once the bottle has been open for the first time. At least, I can't hear anything--just the first opening.
Re vitamin E--if the fish oil already contains vitamin E?
Posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:53:50
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question-solution?, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 9:55:41
Ritch,
I don't have a problem shaking the bottle when it is cold--it seems to even out the differences, even if they might not be completely dissolved.
I guess my other question would be, though, is if it is really so easy to separate the better fatty acids from the more rigid ones, why the fish oil company wouldn't distill the better oils by refrigerating it and skimming it off from the thicker ones? Wouldn't that be a better quality omega 3 product? Ie, with a lot less saturated fat and a lot less omega 6?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 16:19:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 13:12:21
> Larry, would bringing the temp of the fishoil up to around 80 or so just for a few minutes every day hurt anything (so I can take an evenly mixed dose of oil)?
I can't see a problem with that. Just don't shake it around so much as to mix a lot of air bubbles into it. Swirl it up. Don't shake it.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 16:21:38
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:50:25
> Thanks, Larry.
>
> It doesn't make the hissing sound once the bottle has been open for the first time. At least, I can't hear anything--just the first opening.I misunderstood you. Cancel the oxidation.
> Re vitamin E--if the fish oil already contains vitamin E?No need to add more, if it's already got some. I thought you meant that it hissed every time you opened it, which is evidence for strictly chemical reactivity (oxidation) or biochemical reactivity (bacterial).
Lar
Posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 23:07:30
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question-solution? » Ritch, posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:53:50
> Ritch,
>
> I don't have a problem shaking the bottle when it is cold--it seems to even out the differences, even if they might not be completely dissolved.
>
> I guess my other question would be, though, is if it is really so easy to separate the better fatty acids from the more rigid ones, why the fish oil company wouldn't distill the better oils by refrigerating it and skimming it off from the thicker ones? Wouldn't that be a better quality omega 3 product? Ie, with a lot less saturated fat and a lot less omega 6?
OK, it looks like warming the contents to get it to clarify is probably OK. That's what I am going to do when I take a dose. Pull it out of the fridge and swirl it around while I run warm water over it until it turns clear. Then pour out a teaspoon dose and then put it back in the frige. From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3. 800mg EPA+500mg DHA+300mg "other". I'm just as interested in the DHA as the EPA. Perhaps the "other" is what is solidifying? OH well.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 9:00:16
In reply to thanks both of you, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 23:07:30
> OK, it looks like warming the contents to get it to clarify is probably OK. That's what I am going to do when I take a dose. Pull it out of the fridge and swirl it around while I run warm water over it until it turns clear. Then pour out a teaspoon dose and then put it back in the frige.
That sounds fine.
>From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3.
One teaspoon of an oil would be about 4000 mg. There are definitely other fatty acids present.
>800mg EPA+500mg DHA+300mg "other". I'm just as interested in the DHA as the EPA. Perhaps the "other" is what is solidifying? OH well.
I'm sure they mean other omega-3s, like alpha-linolenic.
All the fatty acids in the fish oil are in the form known as a triclyceride. That's a glycerol (same thing as glycerine) molecule attached to three fatty acids by separate ester bonds. Each triglyceride could have any number of combinations of the fatty acids present in the fish oil. You could have one triglyceride molecule with three EPAs tacked on, while the one right next to it has three stearic acids. Stearic acid, by the way, comes from the word meaning "solid". Stearic acid is solid at room temperature. More likely, however, are triglycerides with mixtures of different fatty acids, e.g. one EPA, one stearic, and one oleic. The mixture triglycerides are going to have properties which are mixtures of the properties of the individual fatty acids.
The fish oil stays liquid at room temperature, so there is not likely to be a large number of triglycerides with just stearic acid in them. At refrigerator temperature, there will be enough triglycerides that have dominant saturated character that will condense. Those with dominant polyunsaturated character will not condense, will remain liquid, and will be more easily decanted into the teaspoon. Over time, you'll shift the character of the remaining oil towards saturation, unless you take steps to homogenize it before you decant any.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 9:26:26
In reply to thanks both of you, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 23:07:30
>From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3.
Just because I'm thinking about it.....
There's a table in this paper showing other fatty acids in fish oil:
http://www.restekcorp.com/2002/1572.pdfThis report documents the atrocious fatty acid profile of the typical American diet:
http://www.barc.usda.gov/bhnrc/foodsurvey/pdf/Fatty95.pdfFor a collection demonstrating health effects of fish oil:
http://www.oilofpisces.com/Lar
Posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 10:11:02
In reply to Re: thanks both of you, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 9:00:16
> > OK, it looks like warming the contents to get it to clarify is probably OK. That's what I am going to do when I take a dose. Pull it out of the fridge and swirl it around while I run warm water over it until it turns clear. Then pour out a teaspoon dose and then put it back in the frige.
>
> That sounds fine.
>
> >From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3.
>
> One teaspoon of an oil would be about 4000 mg. There are definitely other fatty acids present.
>
> >800mg EPA+500mg DHA+300mg "other". I'm just as interested in the DHA as the EPA. Perhaps the "other" is what is solidifying? OH well.
>
> I'm sure they mean other omega-3s, like alpha-linolenic.
>
> All the fatty acids in the fish oil are in the form known as a triclyceride. That's a glycerol (same thing as glycerine) molecule attached to three fatty acids by separate ester bonds. Each triglyceride could have any number of combinations of the fatty acids present in the fish oil. You could have one triglyceride molecule with three EPAs tacked on, while the one right next to it has three stearic acids. Stearic acid, by the way, comes from the word meaning "solid". Stearic acid is solid at room temperature. More likely, however, are triglycerides with mixtures of different fatty acids, e.g. one EPA, one stearic, and one oleic. The mixture triglycerides are going to have properties which are mixtures of the properties of the individual fatty acids.
>
> The fish oil stays liquid at room temperature, so there is not likely to be a large number of triglycerides with just stearic acid in them. At refrigerator temperature, there will be enough triglycerides that have dominant saturated character that will condense. Those with dominant polyunsaturated character will not condense, will remain liquid, and will be more easily decanted into the teaspoon. Over time, you'll shift the character of the remaining oil towards saturation, unless you take steps to homogenize it before you decant any.
>
> Lar
>
>
Larry, I went and checked the bottle in the fridge this morning and there is what looks to be a "chunk of lard" laying in the bottom of the bottle (probably several teaspoons), and there is now no liquid that seems to be present at all. I threw the bottle away. Would it be most beneficial to simply use the liquid out of a fresh bottle until the contents begin to become noticeably solidified and then pitch it? Or would it be best to try to get a consistent blend of all the oils present with each dose, by gently heating and stirring the oil prior to each dose? I'm seriously thinking about NOT refrigerating a fresh bottle and just store in a dark, but room temperature location (since they add their own blend of tocopherols to the oil), and see how long it lasts before it begans to become rancid (if it does). What do you think?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 11:44:46
In reply to Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 10:11:02
> Larry, I went and checked the bottle in the fridge this morning and there is what looks to be a "chunk of lard" laying in the bottom of the bottle (probably several teaspoons), and there is now no liquid that seems to be present at all. I threw the bottle away.Good call. You already squeezed all the juice out of that orange, ya know?
>Would it be most beneficial to simply use the liquid out of a fresh bottle until the contents begin to become noticeably solidified and then pitch it?
That would improve the ratio of omega-3 fatty acids to the others. On a comparative basis, this would probably be the best option, but without a chemical analysis, it would be hard to know just when the composition really changes.
>Or would it be best to try to get a consistent blend of all the oils present with each dose, by gently heating and stirring the oil prior to each dose? I'm seriously thinking about NOT refrigerating a fresh bottle and just store in a dark, but room temperature location (since they add their own blend of tocopherols to the oil), and see how long it lasts before it begans to become rancid (if it does). What do you think?
Unless the bottle says "refrigerate after opening", keeping it out of light and away from sources of heat should probably be sufficient to keep the oil from rancidity during the time it takes to consume the whole bottle.
Lar
Posted by jetfixer on April 10, 2003, at 11:54:56
In reply to Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 10:11:02
Can you please tell me what the proper dose of fish oil and dhea is for someone that was looking for a little help with mild depression and anxiety.....thanks
Posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 13:21:03
In reply to Re: fish oil question, posted by jetfixer on April 10, 2003, at 11:54:56
> Can you please tell me what the proper dose of fish oil and dhea is for someone that was looking for a little help with mild depression and anxiety.....thanks
Hope somebody answers that one for you better than I. I think it is somewhat individual. From all of the posts I have read here 1G (equivalent) of EPA/day or somewhat more is generally the rule for depression. There are others here that take more or less and also report good results. I've tried DHEA once and it made me irritable. My GP told me to avoid it because he thought the prostate cancer risk was increased by it if you are over 40.
Posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 16:01:22
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » Ritch, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 11:44:46
So, Larry, why wouldn't the fish oil lab separate out the 2 g of non-omega-3's?(which the label on my Carlson's specifies as 1g saturated and 1 g monounsaturated--I wonder why Ritch's bottle doesn't specify). It seems so simple--cool it a bit and separate. Then they could claim a more pure omega 3 product.
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