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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by scoper on December 28, 2002, at 2:48:22
I get tired of hearing people complain about the lack of efficiency of various antidepressants, and so forth, to the point that they are blue in the face!
Listen up. Scientists are able to synthetically formulate these drugs to meet specific needs for specific people like all of us. Now, just about any pill can be developed, to do just about anything to the brain. Think about Remeron. This drug selectively elevates the S2 and S3 Serotonin receptors, while leaving all the other Serotonin sites alone. I think that is incredible! The drug is smart enough to work in such a precise fashion as to just elevate the Serotonin and Norepinephrine sites primarily involved in Anxiety disorders, while not touching the receptors responsible for worsening the problem. In actuality, the scientists that developed the drug were the smart ones, since they can manipulate chemicals in so many amazing ways! My point is that the ability of Pharmaceutical companies to do just about anything they want to a mind altering drug, makes the prognosis of suffering individuals very good for the future!
There are a few things to remember though, when critiquing your medications' effectiveness. 1.) Do you take it every day as directed? I know that there are many that take "skip days, or drug holidays". I wouldn't reccommend this at all! Things are very easily thrown a few steps back in a big hurry! 2.) Is your antidepressant dose high enough? These drugs are metabolized very differently from person to person. It is not likely that taking 10mg. of Celexa or Paxil, at beginning dose, will do anything at all to the person, except give a quick "boost" to the Serotonin level, inducing fatigue and lethargy. 3.) Are you vitamin, mineral, or amino acid deficient? If so, any Psychotropic medication will make these deficiencies worse, subsequently worsening overall mental health. All in all, they actually deplete the Neurotransmitter levels due to their synthetic activity.
So, if you give your meds. a good shot, and give yourself the time to adjust to them, and follow a good supplement strategy plan (I suggest seeing a Nutritionalist if you suspect major deficiency issues), you will recover in the long run!
Scoper.
Posted by viridis on December 28, 2002, at 4:16:12
In reply to Stop complaining!, posted by scoper on December 28, 2002, at 2:48:22
It is amazing what the pharmaceutical companies can do, and I agree that most people will eventually find a drug or combination that works for them. The problem is that there's still no real "test" that will determine which med is appropriate for which person. Those who come to this site often do so because they don't respond to the standard antidepressants etc., even when they use them exactly as directed, maintain good nutrition, and do all the things you say.
It took me about 11 years to find a drug combo that works, and it wasn't the new drugs that helped -- it was old ones that are now off-patent. I had serious reactions to some of the newer antidepressants, even after extended use, precisely as directed. Increasing the dose just made things worse. Since there is no test for what will work, it was all trial-and-error, and it took an intuitive psychiatrist to help me find an effective, acceptable solution after years of suffering.
In a few years, it probably will be possible to determine which meds will be best for specific people. But we're not there yet, and the implication that posters here are just whiners who don't know how to take their meds properly is kind of insulting to those who are trying very hard to find a solution.
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 28, 2002, at 4:58:25
In reply to Re: Stop complaining! » scoper, posted by viridis on December 28, 2002, at 4:16:12
If you get tired of hearing people complain, why don't you just read pharmeceutical ads?
What you consider complaining, is more likely discussion, and this is the place for it.
Perhaps in your opinion what the pharmeceutical companies are doing is fabulous, but what has that got to do with whether or not a medication is presently working for someone or the debilitating side-effects it can cause
I'm afraid we aren't going to deny the negative effects of yet another highly advertised medication because you are "tired" of it. Its called critical thinking, its called discussion and taking responibility for the treatment of our own illness.
Intelligent people do this 'tiresome' information gathering and criticizing on many subjects.
If we didn't Dr's would still be performing ice-pick lobotomies. They were after all, advertised as a cure-all not very long ago.
Posted by JonW on December 28, 2002, at 10:53:10
In reply to Stop complaining!, posted by scoper on December 28, 2002, at 2:48:22
> I get tired of hearing people complain about the lack of efficiency of various antidepressants, and so forth, to the point that they are blue in the face!
The future may be bright for the treatment of mental illness, but why not show a little empathy for those who are suffering today, now, this moment? Another breath is another moment of pain and far too long to wait for many of the most severe and intractably ill. Please consider this.
Jon
Posted by Dysfunk on December 28, 2002, at 12:58:31
In reply to Re: Stop complaining! » scoper, posted by viridis on December 28, 2002, at 4:16:12
From my knowledge of pharmaceutical companies, depression and axiety drugs are not an area that they pursue relentlessly. The companies are mostly financed to research terminal illnessness, such as cancer. They are led by where the money is. We should be happy with any new discoveries and medications that are available to us.
Posted by BeardedLady on December 28, 2002, at 14:53:07
In reply to Re: Stop complaining!, posted by Dysfunk on December 28, 2002, at 12:58:31
Whine away, y'all. That's your right. It's also your right to complain when you get seizures or liver disease or dizziness or impotence from a med that seems your last hope to get you out of bed (or into it).
It's also your right to cry and feel defeated when you spend ten years searching for a med that will work, all the while using everything as the doctor recommends.
This is psycho babble, so babble in any way you need that gets it off your chest or makes you feel comfortable or makes others aware. Complain away.
And those who aren't interested in reading your complaints or helping you find ways to cope or simply offering a shoulder of support can visit plenty of other desks here: the information desk or the debate desk, the fish-oil desk or the SAMe desk, the side effects desk or the "ask a pharmaceutical sales rep" desk....
beardy : )>
Posted by highanxiety on December 28, 2002, at 17:47:40
In reply to Complaint Desk, posted by BeardedLady on December 28, 2002, at 14:53:07
btw, remeron, the wonder drug you mentioned lowered my seizure threshold. I took it every day and at a high "theraputic" dose. If I hadn't searched this site and others about my side effects I'd have never known what was going on with me on this drug.
This site has helped me to understand my medications, new and old. There seems to be a lot of people here who know a great deal about how these various meds work. I find it very informative and helpful.
Posted by Essence on December 28, 2002, at 18:19:46
In reply to Re: Complaint Desk, posted by highanxiety on December 28, 2002, at 17:47:40
What happened to you while taking Remeron? I frequent this board regularly and can't recall any posts by you regarding Remeron (probably my own fault for missing them). Interested in knowing because I'm on it.
Ess
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 28, 2002, at 19:26:55
In reply to Stop complaining!, posted by scoper on December 28, 2002, at 2:48:22
I had a terrible reaction to Remeron, which I took every day as directed, It gave me such intense headaches and dizziness I thought I was having a stroke, these side-effects did not go away. When I was working my part of my job was to devise supplemental nutrition plans for the mentally handicapped clients I supported.
Now that I am not employed due to my depression I can't afford most supplements certainly not on a regular basis. Can everyone afford to see a naturopath a nutritionist.. Please.
I am lucky my medication is paid for, for many people it is not. I don't think I'm alone in that here either. No my current prescriptions are not working for me, but I'm not permitted to see another doctor.Scoper I said this once before but I think it needs to be said again, having anti-depressants not work is NOT a character flaw, its a matter of chemistry and having all options available, which is something we can't all take for granted.
I'm surprised that if your depression has been taken care of you can't be more empathetic toward others, especially when you are using a board created for the discussion of medication (discussion on anything must include pro's and cons or it is not a discussion) to say you are tired of hearing about that very subject. I wonder if you went to a web-site devoted to vegetarians if you would get tired of hearing people talk about vegetables.
Posted by highanxiety on December 28, 2002, at 21:14:39
In reply to Re: Complaint Deskhighanxiety, posted by Essence on December 28, 2002, at 18:19:46
Hi Essence,
I'm pretty recent to this board. I did have some very helpful responses to my initial post - my sensory problems while on high dose (75mg) remeron. Lights, odors good or bad and heat set me off. I was having multiple "attacks" like this, esp. this summer. Quite often I'd have this sense that I was outside of my body several minutes before a whopper. I am now taking neurontin and weaning off the remeron. The neurontin seems to "deaden" the sensory hell I go through now, thank god.I have to say though that I had also had a seizure on Nardil (no bad food involved) and one while in surgery. So I do have some weird sensitivity to meds. Remeron was the first a-d I tolerated, but there is no way that my dr. should have raised the dose so high knowing my backround. Have to say though I really like the neurontin!
Posted by Jumpy on December 29, 2002, at 15:44:57
In reply to Stop complaining!, posted by scoper on December 28, 2002, at 2:48:22
Dear Scoper,
The classic quote in the literature of 80 to 90% response to psychiatric medical therapy is a bit of a misnomer. The actually "remission" rate, that is a HAMD<7 or disappearance of symptoms, is thought to be somewhere around 30 to 35%. That means 65 to 70% of us with depression still have symptoms despite medical therapy! So I think it is only normal to complain, especially if we spending lots of money, time and effort only to get a partial response.
Drug companies maybe able to make medication that bind to very specific receptors but this must be taken with a grain of salt. First, we still have no idea what causes mental illness and thus what receptors to target. (We may soon discover targeting serotonin receptors was completely wrong and that depression has nothing to do with serotonin). Second, these medications are studied on rat neurons in the test tube. The same medications may act totally different in the human brain/body.
Jumpy
Posted by jay on December 29, 2002, at 16:27:22
In reply to Re: Complaint dept/remeron » scoper, posted by Gabbix2 on December 28, 2002, at 19:26:55
> Now that I am not employed due to my depression I can't afford most supplements certainly not on a regular basis. Can everyone afford to see a naturopath a nutritionist.. Please.
> I am lucky my medication is paid for, for many people it is not. I don't think I'm alone in that here either. No my current prescriptions are not working for me, but I'm not permitted to see another doctor.
>Gabbi:
I believe you live in Canada, as I do to, and there are some good, *free* programs to help you out. Yes, the vitamins and suppliments can help a bit, but there are other alternatives, mainly interpersonal therapy (my fav) and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (this has to be done right..not by some fly-by-night counsellor.)
But, most of all, you CAN take meds, many of them, in different combos as needed. Benzos, IMHO, MUST be taken everytime you use an antidepressant. To me, along with all the add-ons, the benzos are what keep everything 'glued'.
So..if you live in Ontario, there is some of the, if not *the* best, psych care centres in the world in Toronto, Hamilton, and Ottawa.
This page lists all of the excellent 'Mood Disorders Clinics' in Ontario:
http://www.mooddisorders.on.ca/index.htmThis page has links to TONS of excellent, mostly free (through our Public Health) resources in Ontario and Canada:
http://www.mooddisorders.on.ca/Links.htmI hope that helps for starts. You need SERIOUS help dear..and that doesn't just mean massive medication doses..but overall *excellent* medical and psychiatric attention using many resources.
Best wishes,
Jay
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 29, 2002, at 17:03:52
In reply to Gabbix2 re:pay for meds and better help 4 U » Gabbix2, posted by jay on December 29, 2002, at 16:27:22
Thanks Jay, that was very thoughtful.
Unfortunaly I live on the west coast, and have been dogged in my pursuit of the help my friends and family keep insisting is "out there"
Healthcare funding out this way has suffered massive cutbacks, and after well over a year of following dead-end leads, I was told the truth finally by a mental health worker, that what I'm looking for (in this case therapy) is not available.There are a few group programs, but they were of no help to me as they are so small in number they
group all mental illnesses into one. For someone like me being taught the a.b.c's of personal hygeine or how to use the bus, just made me more depressed :(
To add insult to injury its an unwritten rule that all the programs serve decaf only.And with that went my last incentive to attend.
This is the end of the thread.
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