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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BekkaH on November 23, 2002, at 22:18:01
Hi. I wonder whether anyone has heard of glucosamine and chondroitin causing any adverse effects? I'm doing to do an Internet search, but I thought I'd ask here first.
Thanks.
Posted by BekkaH on November 23, 2002, at 23:08:17
In reply to More glucosamine chondroitin questions, posted by BekkaH on November 23, 2002, at 22:18:01
I'm doing to do an Internet search, but I thought I'd ask here first.
***********************************************Oops! I mean, I'm GOING to do an Internet search. I think it's time to sleep.
Posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 20:40:16
In reply to More glucosamine chondroitin questions, posted by BekkaH on November 23, 2002, at 22:18:01
> Hi. I wonder whether anyone has heard of glucosamine and chondroitin causing any adverse effects? I'm doing to do an Internet search, but I thought I'd ask here first.
>
> Thanks.
Glucosamine has been linked to increased insulin resistance. However here is an abstract of a study that demonstrated no increase in insulin resistance in rats that were highly sensitive to insulin resistance."Effects of oral glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate alone and in combination on the metabolism of SHR and SD rats.
Echard BW, Talpur NA, Funk KA, et al. Mol Cell Biochem 2001;225:85-91.
Glucosamine (G), often combined with chondroitin sulfate (CS), is a popular natural supplement used widely to treat osteoarthritis. However, use of glucosamine has been linked to development of insulin resistance. To assess the association between glucosamine and insulin resistance more closely, we challenged two rat strains highly sensitive to sugar-induced insulin resistance-Sprague-Dawley (SD) and Spontaneously Hypertensive (SHR) rats. Since elevations of systolic blood pressure (SBP) have been found to be an early and highly sensitive sign of insulin resistance in these two rat strains, we used this parameter as our primary endpoint. Four groups of both rat strains received either no agent (control), G, CS, or a combination of both for 9 weeks. The intake of each agent was calculated to be approximately 3-7 times comparable to human dose. Throughout the study, SBP of both strains consuming the two ingredients alone and in combination were not elevated. Rather, they were significantly lower than control, contrary to what is found in glucose-induced insulin resistance in rats. Over the study period, body weights of the four groups of SD and SHR did not vary significantly. Furthermore, no consistent trends in circulating glucose concentrations were found among the four different groups in the two strains after oral challenge with glucose. Finally, no significant histological differences were found in hearts, kidneys, and livers among the various groups of SHR and SD. From the above result, we conclude that glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate given alone or together do not produce insulin resistance or other related perturbations in two rat strains highly sensitive to sugar-induced insulin resistance."
Even though rats are not human I think this is still a good result for those of us that are taking either glucosamine, chondroitin or both.
Posted by ItsHowdyDudyTime on November 27, 2002, at 20:32:06
In reply to Re: More glucosamine chondroitin questions » BekkaH, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 20:40:16
Glucosamine is an effective treatment for arthritis and general aches and pains. However I echo the above poster who put a study indicating that glucosamine/chondroitin supplements can raise blood sugar and screw around with insulin. I personally wouldnt take glucosamine because of this very reason. However, some swear by the stuff and dont seem to worry about side effects.
Other than the raises blood sugar/insulin thing (which is pretty serious IMO) I have heard nothing bad about these supplements. However I refuse to use them due to this one bad side effect. Diabetes is serious stuff.
If I was a user of glucosamine/chondroiten, I would definitely cease using it for at least a full week before I had any doctor checkups or physicals. It might cause you to have a false blood sugar elevation which could really upset both yourself and your doctor and then require additional tests.
There are other OTC supplements Ive read about that are probably safer than glucosamine and chondroiten. something called "MSM" is supposed to be effective for joint pain and is oftentimes added to glucosamine products. Also, combinations of Omega-3 and Omega-6 oils taken together over long time periods are reported to have profound anti-inflammatory properties and excellent for bone and joint pain. Plus the Omega-3 oil is reported to have mood elevating properties when taken at high dosages.
Glucosamine and chondroiten products are also very very expensive, as Im sure you well know.
Howdy Doody
Posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 0:25:42
In reply to More glucosamine chondroitin questions, posted by BekkaH on November 23, 2002, at 22:18:01
Bekka, glucosamine & chondroitin have been in the spotlight for a while now, but few people seem to realise that this is the stuff that helped make home made soups gel. When soup bones were simmered for a long time & the soft cartilage & gristle broke down & dissolved, the broth was very rich in both glucosamine & chondroitin. I still think it's the best source for them & cheap compared to supplements. Besides, supplements don't offer much as compared to home made broth.
I've never heard anybody suffering adverse effects from eating lots of soup made from meat/bone stock. I still eat lots of soup in cool weather when I don't mind a stock pot simmering in the kitchen.
Something few people also know about is that both glucosamine & chondroitin aren't absorbed into the blood stream. Both are very large molecules & are digested into their component parts. Yes, they are the building blocks of cartilage & are probably beneficial that way, but they don't pass unchanged into our blood & then into new cartilage for us.
It's like a diabetic needs to inject insulin & cannot take it in pill form. It would only be digested & unable to enter the blood, so to get directly into the blood system, it must be injected.
Posted by BekkaH on November 28, 2002, at 17:46:36
In reply to Re: More glucosamine chondroitin questions » BekkaH, posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 0:25:42
> Something few people also know about is that both glucosamine & chondroitin aren't absorbed into the blood stream. Both are very large molecules & are digested into their component parts. Yes, they are the building blocks of cartilage & are probably beneficial that way, but they don't pass unchanged into our blood & then into new cartilage for us.
>
> It's like a diabetic needs to inject insulin & cannot take it in pill form. It would only be digested & unable to enter the blood, so to get directly into the blood system, it must be injected.
***********************************************Hmm. . .Very interesting. I've heard that a number of supplements contain molecules that are too large to be absorbed. Just last week, a physician told me that she had participated in some research on lecithin and that it, too, was not well absorbed. Although lecithin is not as expensive as some of the other supplements, I would hate to think that it has been a waste. I have been taking it for a while.
Posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 0:45:08
In reply to glucosamine chondroitin questions - IsoM, posted by BekkaH on November 28, 2002, at 17:46:36
Lecithin is mainly composed of around 20% phosphatidylcholine. It's what lecithin really is & what makes it useful. It's made from a phosphate group along with fatty acids, & no fat is absorbed directly into the blood. It must be digested by bile into simpler parts before it can be used. The breakdown can get incredibly complex:
http://www.lipid.co.uk/infores/Lipids/pc/
but unless one's digestion of fats is faulty, it will be digested & used. Lecithin is a good source of choline as you can see in its name of phosphatidylcholine.If you've been taking lecithin, your body's used it. Just don't use those large oily capsules sold in some health food stores - they're mostly just oil. It's the lecithin granules that have higher amounts of phosphatidylcholine.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2002, at 8:58:13
In reply to Re: lecithin » BekkaH, posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 0:45:08
> Lecithin is mainly composed of around 20% phosphatidylcholine. It's what lecithin really is & what makes it useful. It's made from a phosphate group along with fatty acids, & no fat is absorbed directly into the blood. It must be digested by bile into simpler parts before it can be used. The breakdown can get incredibly complex:
> http://www.lipid.co.uk/infores/Lipids/pc/
> but unless one's digestion of fats is faulty, it will be digested & used. Lecithin is a good source of choline as you can see in its name of phosphatidylcholine.
>
> If you've been taking lecithin, your body's used it. Just don't use those large oily capsules sold in some health food stores - they're mostly just oil. It's the lecithin granules that have higher amounts of phosphatidylcholine.In my local bulk/natural foods retailer, they sell 250 mL bottles of lecithin, for only a couple bucks. I'm presuming this is crude soya lecithin (it comes from a processor of whole grain flours, including low-fat soya flour). do you think this is what the stuff really is? Lecithin granules are really soya flour with substantial amounts of lecithin mixed back in.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 10:23:14
In reply to GlucosamineBekka, posted by ItsHowdyDudyTime on November 27, 2002, at 20:32:06
> However I echo the above poster who put a study indicating that glucosamine/chondroitin supplements can raise blood sugar and screw around with insulin. I personally wouldnt take glucosamine because of this very reason.
The study I linked to actually indicated that glucosamine/chondroitin did NOT cause insulin resistance, even in a sample of rats with high susceptibility to insulin resistance.
>
> Other than the raises blood sugar/insulin thing (which is pretty serious IMO) I have heard nothing bad about these supplements. However I refuse to use them due to this one bad side effect. Diabetes is serious stuff.I personally am not so convinced that anything and everything that raises blood sugar levels inevitably leads to insulin resistance or diabetes. I have read studies (I don't have them to hand but I can probably find them again) that basically say that to induce insulin resistance you firstly need to have a genetic susceptibility to this condition and then you really have to abuse yourself with the offending substances (eg alcohol, extremely high dietary sugar intake) or to be suffering from obesity (which often, but not always, results from poor lifestyle habits (abusing the offending substances, being completely inactive, high dietary fat intake etc). I do not think that taking glucosamine and/or Chondroitin supplements puts a person at that much risk of developing insulin resistance especially if you take the supplements in the context of a healthy lifestyle (ie good diet, good sleep habits and plenty of exercise). In light of my views I continue to take glucosamine because It has been demonstrated to be effective (see http://www.arthritis-glucosamine.net/glucosamine/ and http://www.arthritis-glucosamine.net/glucosamine/science/ ) and because it reduces the inflammation in my knees it allows me to continue exercising at levels I would otherwise be unable to do.
>
>
> There are other OTC supplements Ive read about that are probably safer than glucosamine and chondroiten. something called "MSM" is supposed to be effective for joint pain and is oftentimes added to glucosamine products. Also, combinations of Omega-3 and Omega-6 oils taken together over long time periods are reported to have profound anti-inflammatory properties and excellent for bone and joint pain. Plus the Omega-3 oil is reported to have mood elevating properties when taken at high dosages.
I also take omega-3 fish oil supplements and turmeric to assist with bringing inflammation in my knees down . I suppose I take a poly-therapy approach to my health because I don't believe that any one therapy on it's own works as well as an overall approach.>
> Glucosamine and chondroiten products are also very very expensive, as Im sure you well know.
>To me, because glucosamine actually works I consider the cost worthwhile. The daily cost for the brand of supplements I take is about 44 cents (AUS $) or probably about 20 US cents which is cheaper than if I were to take NSAIDS for my problem and which have a far more serious side effect profile than glucosamine or chondroitin.
bluedog
Posted by IsoM on December 1, 2002, at 2:27:06
In reply to Re: lecithin » IsoM, posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2002, at 8:58:13
Larry, I can't say how much actual lecithin would be in the liquid lecithin at the bulk-foods place you mentioned. Liquid lecithin can contain up to 30% or more lecithin, or as low as 10%.
Lecithin granules you mentioned is another way lecithin can be found. But there's also better grade lecithin which tends to be finer & less oily than the granules & it's not mixed with any flour. Some can be as high as 90% or more lecithin. The baking industry makes use of it a lot.
There's no way to be certain unless it states how much there is on the container labelling. The variation can be significantly different from one to another.
I have a jar of liquid lecithin but I don't use it for supplementing. I mix it with oil when I grease my bread loaf pans so the bread slips out easily. And I mix a little with live oil so when I shake up a bottle of dressing, the oil, vinegar, & water tend to stay mixed.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 1, 2002, at 11:59:19
In reply to Re: lecithin and its diff forms » Larry Hoover, posted by IsoM on December 1, 2002, at 2:27:06
> Larry, I can't say how much actual lecithin would be in the liquid lecithin at the bulk-foods place you mentioned. Liquid lecithin can contain up to 30% or more lecithin, or as low as 10%.
Just to be clear on terminology....are you referring to phosphatidylcholine when you are referring to lecithin?
> Lecithin granules you mentioned is another way lecithin can be found. But there's also better grade lecithin which tends to be finer & less oily than the granules & it's not mixed with any flour. Some can be as high as 90% or more lecithin. The baking industry makes use of it a lot.
But still a solid?
> There's no way to be certain unless it states how much there is on the container labelling. The variation can be significantly different from one to another.No details, but I could contact the supplier.
> I have a jar of liquid lecithin but I don't use it for supplementing. I mix it with oil when I grease my bread loaf pans so the bread slips out easily. And I mix a little with live oil so when I shake up a bottle of dressing, the oil, vinegar, & water tend to stay mixed.I'm living on a tight budget, so finding cost-effective supplements appeals to me. And, I tend to prefer "crude concentrates" over more refined ones. Blackstrap molasses over brown sugar. That sort of thing. Momma nature got tings in da food dat we don't know.
Posted by IsoM on December 2, 2002, at 2:18:57
In reply to Re: lecithin and its diff forms, posted by Larry Hoover on December 1, 2002, at 11:59:19
Larry, rather than do a lot of writing (I'm feeling lazy), I'll just explain a bit & give you links to look over, if you don't mind.
Soy lecithin doesn't just have phosphatidylcholine in it but there's other phopholipids in it too. One site mentions phosphatidylethanolamine, phosphatidylinositol, & phosphatidic acid too as the main ones. Shows my ignorance - I hadn't heard of the first or last one mentioned.To learn of some of the diff forms lecithin can be sold in, check this link:
http://www.americanlecithin.com/aboutleci.html
These forms of lecithin are used in the food industry, but I'm sure there must be a way for the individual buyers to get it too.And this is a pdf article. You'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader for it, but it explains *a lot* more about lecithins:
http://www.americanlecithin.com/lecithin.pdfThe more food is refined, the more nutrients are lost & so is taste & flavour in my opinion. I don't care how rich I became (yeah, like it's going to happen!) or whatever, I like my cooking & would always make my own rather than buy. Nothing beats good home-made. You can control flavour, spices, ingredients, & nutritional value & I never have to worry about food poisoning or bacteria contamination. I made raisin bread yesterday (I never use recipes) & with the added soy & gluten flours, wheat germ, eggs, & milk, it has a protein content comparable to meat. My cats won't eat store-bought bread, but they'll gobble mine down, not that I give them much.
Posted by sjb on December 2, 2002, at 9:05:51
In reply to Re: GlucosamineBekka, posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 10:23:14
This link is very interesting. I've heard of turmeric, but fill me in: Does it come as a supplement on its own or is it included in something else?
I've just starting taking gluc/chon as I've increased my training, and now that I'm older, I don't recover as I used to. Gee, that's a news flash. I realize nothing will ever turn back the clock, but if I can get some help with anything legal, somewhat effective and safe, I'll do it.
BTW - I'm not a big fan of Puritan's Pride but they're having a 60% sale now, and I got the gluc/chon fairly cheap.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 2, 2002, at 9:49:16
In reply to Re: lecithin and its diff forms » Larry Hoover, posted by IsoM on December 2, 2002, at 2:18:57
> Larry, rather than do a lot of writing (I'm feeling lazy), I'll just explain a bit & give you links to look over, if you don't mind.
>
> Soy lecithin doesn't just have phosphatidylcholine in it but there's other phopholipids in it too. One site mentions phosphatidylethanolamine, phosphatidylinositol, & phosphatidic acid too as the main ones. Shows my ignorance - I hadn't heard of the first or last one mentioned.I've had problems in the past with confusion over terminology. Some people think that lecithin is an equivalent term for phosphatidylcholine. I just wanted to make sure what you were saying to me. Thanks for the links. From the info on this site, I'd presume that the stuff I saw was the crudest form, roughly 40% fat, 20% misc., and 40% phosphatides. I'm going to go and buy some, and see if it is palatable straight up. Looks like it's a decent source for sphyngolipids (up to 8%).
Soya lecithin provides three of the four membrane phosphatides. What's missing (less than 1%) is phosphatidylserine. Unfortunately, PS is expensive, and it is the most necessary to supplement because there aren't too many good natural sources for it.
Posted by IsoM on December 2, 2002, at 10:44:56
In reply to Re: lecithin and its diff forms, posted by Larry Hoover on December 2, 2002, at 9:49:16
Trust me, Larry, unless you like taking cloyingly thick oily liquids, you won't find the liquid form palatable at all! It's kind of sticky too so is really hard to take which is why I'd rather have the granules or grainy powder. It, at least, can be mixed with other foods.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 2, 2002, at 12:48:54
In reply to Re: Turmeric, posted by sjb on December 2, 2002, at 9:05:51
> This link is very interesting. I've heard of turmeric, but fill me in: Does it come as a supplement on its own or is it included in something else?
Turmeric is a spice. Think curry. You may find one active constituent of turmeric added to other substances used for joint pain relief: curcumin.
Turmeric is amazingly cheap at a bulk food store. I just stir a teaspoon into water. I've come to enjoy the taste, though others aren't so lucky.
Posted by sjb on December 3, 2002, at 8:46:19
In reply to Re: Turmeric, posted by Larry Hoover on December 2, 2002, at 12:48:54
Yeah, I KNOW that but forgot as I was in the mind set of supplements when reading these threads.
Found some turmeric in the spice cabinet (cap is dusty - homey, here, hardly EVER cooks.)
Will try today -expecting MIRACLES!!!
This is the end of the thread.
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