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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by turalizz on June 2, 2002, at 3:22:39
Hi,
Can anyone compare provigil to adrafinil? What makes the huge difference in their prices?Also, I am interested in learning about what an adrafinil/provigil experience is like. What is the effect of these drugs? Stimulation? Is it anything near the stimulants or noradrenergic AD's (reboxetine) or MAOI's (moclobemide/selegiline)?
My case is a mix of distymia with atypical features (hypersomnia, sensitivity to rejection, mood reactivity) plus social phobia and ADD (without hyperactivity). At the moment, I am using 300 mg/day moclobemide, 2.5 mg/day selegiline and 800 mg/day piracetam. With this medication regimen, my hypersomnia is completely solved, my depression lifted, social phobia and ADD improved (but not totally solved). I still lack some "drive" in my life.
Do you think adrafinil/provigil might be a better help for me?
thanks,
cem
Posted by jackstraw232 on October 12, 2002, at 14:11:14
In reply to adrafinil, modafinil, SP,ADD, drive, etc, posted by turalizz on June 2, 2002, at 3:22:39
I would give it a shot. It seems like you are quite the experimenter already.
Good Luck
I like adrafinil.
Posted by Rick on October 12, 2002, at 19:14:22
In reply to adrafinil, modafinil, SP,ADD, drive, etc, posted by turalizz on June 2, 2002, at 3:22:39
Klonopin/clonazepam remains the key to controlling my social fear -- much better than any AD has (although I haven't had depression or dysthmia). After starting at 3 mg/day over three years ago, I'm now down to 1mg, all first thing in the morning.
However, 100 mg Provigil adds a very nice, mildly stimulating and socially motivating dimension to the treatment. It also has mild mood-elevating properties, especially early on. And it keeps me wide awake, but only when I *want* to be awake. Selegiline was also nice in combo with Klonopin, although it fell short of Provigil in all ways, and added back some anxiety (maybe my 5.0 mg/day was too much). Provigil hasn't been specifically tested for interactions with MAOI's (the manufacturer suggests caution), but the anecdotal reports I've heard haven't suggested any problems with the combo.
Rick
> Hi,
> Can anyone compare provigil to adrafinil? What makes the huge difference in their prices?
>
> Also, I am interested in learning about what an adrafinil/provigil experience is like. What is the effect of these drugs? Stimulation? Is it anything near the stimulants or noradrenergic AD's (reboxetine) or MAOI's (moclobemide/selegiline)?
>
> My case is a mix of distymia with atypical features (hypersomnia, sensitivity to rejection, mood reactivity) plus social phobia and ADD (without hyperactivity). At the moment, I am using 300 mg/day moclobemide, 2.5 mg/day selegiline and 800 mg/day piracetam. With this medication regimen, my hypersomnia is completely solved, my depression lifted, social phobia and ADD improved (but not totally solved). I still lack some "drive" in my life.
>
> Do you think adrafinil/provigil might be a better help for me?
>
> thanks,
>
> cem
Posted by Rick on October 12, 2002, at 19:18:02
In reply to adrafinil, modafinil, SP,ADD, drive, etc, posted by turalizz on June 2, 2002, at 3:22:39
Posted by turalizz on October 13, 2002, at 9:30:37
In reply to P.S. What does the Piracetam add for you? (nm) » turalizz, posted by Rick on October 12, 2002, at 19:18:02
The 800mg dose was supposedly doing nothing!
I raised the dose to 1600 - 2400 mg/day within time, and I felt a definite improvement in my memory. I can recall names, events much faster, and it helps me with my exams, remembering the formulas and all. But I felt the improvement in 3 - 4 weeks.
A so called "attack dose" of 4 - 5 grams is mentioned to get an acute effect from piracetam, but I never tried that.cem
Posted by Rick on October 13, 2002, at 15:27:59
In reply to Re: P.S. What does the Piracetam add for you? » Rick , posted by turalizz on October 13, 2002, at 9:30:37
> The 800mg dose was supposedly doing nothing!
> I raised the dose to 1600 - 2400 mg/day within time, and I felt a definite improvement in my memory. I can recall names, events much faster, and it helps me with my exams, remembering the formulas and all. But I felt the improvement in 3 - 4 weeks.Thanks for the good info! May I ask a few more questions?
Did you start taking the piracetam specifically to counter med-induced memory loss, or as a general memory-enhancer? If the former, what med(s) do you feel were the culprit? Moclobemide? Do you feel the selegiline helps your memory in addition to the piracetam?
Also, does piracetam have any side effects? And how do you dose it during the day?
Thanks again.
Rick
Posted by turalizz on October 13, 2002, at 15:57:51
In reply to Re: P.S. What does the Piracetam add for you? » turalizz, posted by Rick on October 13, 2002, at 15:27:59
I was having trouble with my memory last year, but it was partly because of the depression itself, and it got worse on effexor. Moclobemide don't have any effects on my memory. Actually, it helps with my ADD-like symptoms (short attention span, trouble concentrating etc.)
I started taking piracetam, to see what happens :)
The only AD that I felt a decline in my memory was effexor.About selegiline helping my memory, I can't tell. I started it before piracetam, but didn't notice anything about my memory. Besides, the dose I am taking is pretty low.
But I remember reading an abstract telling that selegiline had an indirect, dose dependant 20 - 30% AChE inhibitor property, so it is very likely that it may help with memory. Try some medline search, and I believe you will find that article.
I divide the pir dose to two. One after breakfast, one after lunch. And I don't get any side effects from it. It is told to be the least toxic of all the nootropics.
I hope that helps.cem
Posted by Seamus2 on October 13, 2002, at 20:34:03
In reply to Re: P.S. What does the Piracetam add for you? » Rick, posted by turalizz on October 13, 2002, at 15:57:51
I didn't find anything on selegiline and AChE, but I did find this:
"Dose linearity study of selegiline pharmacokinetics after oral administration: evidence for strong drug interaction with female sex steroids."
...Concomitant use of oral contraceptives caused a drastic (20-fold) increase in the oral bioavailability of selegiline...
Br J Clin Pharmacol 1999 Mar;47(3):249-54
Posted by jackstraw232 on October 13, 2002, at 21:31:23
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill » turalizz, posted by Seamus2 on October 13, 2002, at 20:34:03
You guys seem pretty interested in nootropics...have you tried adrafinil?
Posted by Rick on October 13, 2002, at 23:01:02
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill, posted by jackstraw232 on October 13, 2002, at 21:31:23
> You guys seem pretty interested in nootropics...have you tried adrafinil?
What benefits have you found from adrafinil from a nootropic standpoint? I've enjoyed lots of benefits from Provigil/modafinil, which as you probably know is adrafinil's primary metabolite. But those benefits are in terms of anxiety-free wakefulness, motivation, sociability...NOT improved memory or sharpened mental prowess, unfortunately.
Maybe the modivation is profits (modafinil costs a lot more), but I notice that high-profile nootropic purveyors on the net seem to position modafinil has an "improved, higher strength" adrafinil.
Rick
Posted by turalizz on October 14, 2002, at 4:02:32
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill » turalizz, posted by Seamus2 on October 13, 2002, at 20:34:03
EFFECTS OF (-)DEPRENYL (SELEGILINE) ON ACETYLCHOLINESTERASE AND NA(+),K(+)-ATPase ACTIVITIES IN ADULT RAT WHOLE BRAIN.
ANTONIADES C, CARAGEORGIOU H, TSAKIRIS S.
Department of Experimental Physiology, Medical School, University of Athens, P.O. Box 65257, GR-154 01, Athens, Greece
(-)Deprenyl is an irreversible inhibitor of monoaminoxidase-B (MAO-B) at concentration 10(-6)M and of both MAO-A and MAO-B at concentration 10(-5)M. In this study, the effect of different concentrations (10(-7)-10(-4)M) of (-)deprenyl on the activity of acetylcholinesterase (AChE), Na(+),K(+)-ATPase and Mg(2+)-ATPase was investigated in homogenates of adult rat whole brain and in pure enzymes. Drug preincubation period with the homogenates or pure enzymes was 1 and 3h. Brain AChE activity was decreased by 30-39% (P<0.01) when exposed to 10(-4)M (-)deprenyl, by 22-25% (P<0.01) when exposed to 10(-5)M of the drug, and by 18-20% (P<0.01) after preincubation with a concentration of the drug 10(-6)M. Brain Na(+),K(+)-ATPase was stimulated by 46-162% (P<0.001) when the homogenate was preincubated with 10(-4)M (-)deprenyl and by 36-104% (P<0.001) for preincubation with drug concentration 10(-6)M. No effect was observed on the activity of brain Mg(2+)-ATPase, pure AChE or pure Na(+),K(+)-ATPase when exposed to the above concentrations of the drug. We conclude that (-)deprenyl is an indirect AChE inhibitor and Na(+),K(+)-ATPase stimulator in the rat brain (in vitro).
PMID: 12220956 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Posted by jackstraw232 on October 14, 2002, at 13:16:41
In reply to Re: Nootropics/adrafinil » jackstraw232, posted by Rick on October 13, 2002, at 23:01:02
Yes indeed, the term "nootropic" reeks of a profit motive. I personally am very suspicious of those who are so emphatic about so called drugs that really improve brain function so much so that cognitive abilities are improved. I find many "posts" that users testify that these drugs make them "smarter" and I serioiusly question the validity of many of such posts. I can, however, testify that adrafinil definately increases my energy level, and thus the use of my brain. Thank you for your response.
Oh yeah, and adrafinil is exponetially cheaper than modafinil. I have a question; what percent of adrafinil's metabolites turn into modafinil?
Posted by Rick on October 14, 2002, at 19:38:26
In reply to Re: Nootropics/adrafinil, posted by jackstraw232 on October 14, 2002, at 13:16:41
>I have a question; what percent of adrafinil's metabolites turn into modafinil?
All I can tell, from the attached article (a pdf from the journal CNS Drug Reviews), is that modafinil is the "main" metabolite of the two that are produced by adrafinil. Fyi, the article suggests that the two drugs should have very similar effects, but also presents some evidence suggesting there could be differences.
http://www.nevapress.com/cnsdr/full/5/3/193.pdf
Rick
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 17, 2002, at 10:37:34
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill, posted by jackstraw232 on October 13, 2002, at 21:31:23
> You guys seem pretty interested in nootropics...have you tried adrafinil?
-------------------I've been on it for a few weeks. I bought it to combat excessive daytime sleepiness, which it has done effectively. I don't find myself yawning or nodding off at work anymore, and I feel a bit more focused (less easily distracted). It hasn't made my memory better, or made me smarter, though. The only downside is a weird buzzing feeling around my scalp, and pungent smelling urine. Still, it's cheap, mild, and works as a good replacement to 3 cups of coffee.
Posted by jackstraw232 on October 17, 2002, at 13:30:42
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill » jackstraw232, posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 17, 2002, at 10:37:34
The smell is quite pungent; I would say of sulphur. Adrafinil actually has a half life of one hour; it breaks down very quickly and I assume is excreted in urine. Do you have any idea to what degree this substance is detectable in urinanaysis? What if you got drug tested? Would adrafinil be a substance that, say, the police or my employer would be looking for in the case I was suspected of drug abuse or randomly subjected to urine toxicology? That is what I would like to know. And, how much damage are adrafinil users risking to the liver? These are very important questions and I would like to know. Thanks.
Posted by Rick on October 17, 2002, at 18:47:13
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill, posted by jackstraw232 on October 17, 2002, at 13:30:42
> The smell is quite pungent; I would say of sulphur.
Funny, I never noticed the smell. (We ARE talking about selegiline here, right? Or did this refer to adrafinil?)
>Adrafinil actually has a half life of one hour; it breaks down very quickly and I assume is excreted in urine. Do you have any idea to what degree this substance is detectable in urinanaysis? What if you got drug tested? Would adrafinil be a substance that, say, the police or my employer would be looking for in the case I was suspected of drug abuse or randomly subjected to urine toxicology?Whether it's detectable in urine or not, I don't think there's anything about adrafilinil or its metabolites that would put up a red flag in drug tests. Selegiline, of course, is a different story, since one of its metabolites is methamphetamine.
>And, how much damage are adrafinil users risking to the liver?
I'm not sure about the extent of liver risk, but if the drug was very dangerous in this regard then France's equivalent of the FDA would not allow doctors there to prescribe it. Quarterly liver function tests are recommended with adrafinil, to catch any toxicity and stop the med before it does any damage. If you're on almost any psychotropic it's a good idea to have liver function tests at least twice a year, especially if you're taking multiple liver-metabolized drugs (psychotropic or otherwise).
Rick
Posted by jackstraw232 on October 18, 2002, at 14:19:28
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill » jackstraw232, posted by Rick on October 17, 2002, at 18:47:13
By the way Rick, what evidence do you have for your assertion that one of selegiline's metabolites is methamphetamine? It is awkward that you chose not to cite any evidence for your claim. Please follow up.
Posted by Rick on October 18, 2002, at 20:02:35
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill, posted by jackstraw232 on October 18, 2002, at 14:19:28
Jackstraw, it's hardly an "assertion", it's a well-recognized aspect of the drug's pharmacology. It is documented in the manufacturer's official monograph. BTW, if you search on the terms selegiline and methamphetamine in Medline, you'll come up with about 120 abstracts. It's sometimes thought the amphetamines, even though in fairly small amounts, may contribute to selegiline's activating and potentially anxiogenic effects.
Here's a passage from the selegiline monograph at
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/seleg_cp.htm :
Effects resulting from selegiline administration may also be mediated through its metabolites. Two of its three principal metabolites, amphetamine and methamphetamine, have pharmacological actions of their own. they interfere with neuronal uptake and enhance release of several neurotransmitters (e.g., norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin). However, the extent to which these metabolites contribute to the effects of selegiline are unknown.Rick
> By the way Rick, what evidence do you have for your assertion that one of selegiline's metabolites is methamphetamine? It is awkward that you chose not to cite any evidence for your claim. Please follow up.
Posted by jackstraw232 on October 19, 2002, at 1:31:18
In reply to Re: P.S. Selegiline and the Pill » jackstraw232, posted by Rick on October 18, 2002, at 20:02:35
Hey Rick, please let me apologise for my ignorance. I actually attempted (and thought that I succeeded) to erase my post immediately after googling methamphetamine and selegiline. I'm sorry. I just thought it was very unlikely for any drug with a metabolite that contains a metabolite with such a destructive element as meth to be floating around so freely throughout the world with such praise...and I (his majesty the baby) had not been informed! Thank you for informing me. I just thought that you were revealing some element of your own research. Thank you.
This is the end of the thread.
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