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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sally Green on June 11, 2002, at 14:11:49
Hi:
I have recently started at a detox center that uses Buprenex Injectables. First, after plenty of research, I have discovered that this clinic is operating illegally. Here in PA NO detox clinic is allowed to be using this drug. Buprenex is perfectly legal and approved by the FDA when prescribed for depression or pain management, but not detox off of opiates or heroin.
Is anyone experiencing the same situation? Before anyone assumes that I am just some bum who got addicted to street drugs, I have a long history of pain and have been in several car accidents. Have had cervical and other surgeries and first started on loricets and then graduated to Oxy's. Of course, however, my addictive personality traits kicked in and I was doing many more Oxy's then I would like to mention.
We found this detox service on the internet and when questioned they act like they are operating within the law. There catch...they insist that you come prepared with documentation and proof of depression or pain. They offer various detox programs, charge an outrageous fee for detox services and then convert EVERYONE into a pain management or depression patients and keep you on the stuff forever. (Atleast until they are caught or shut down.)
If you know of any clinic that is using this drug, you are receiving Buprenex Injectables for detox off of heoin or Oxycotins and would like to discuss, please add to this note and lets start a discussion.
Thanks
Sally
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2002, at 0:26:09
In reply to BUPRENEX/Pain management?DETOX? ANYONE?, posted by Sally Green on June 11, 2002, at 14:11:49
Hi Sally.
> Before anyone assumes that I am just some bum who got addicted to street drugs, I have a long history of pain and have been in several car accidents.
I think I can speak for most people on PB when I say that we don't "assume" anything about people posting here. Lots of addicts (including many who use "street" drugs) aren't "just some bum."
> Have had cervical and other surgeries and first started on loricets and then graduated to Oxy's.
Err...you mean cervical *spine* surgery, right? That was the impression I got from reading your other posts.
> They offer various detox programs, charge an outrageous fee for detox services and then convert EVERYONE into a pain management or depression patients and keep you on the stuff forever. (Atleast until they are caught or shut down.)
Obviously I can't be sure, but I think you might be jumping to conclusions about this. Although they may be taking advantage of a legal loophole, I'm not sure if it's technically illegal. As for ethics, they're probably in the clear there too.
I also think it's important for you to focus on your treatment and not so much on questioning the appropriateness of other people's treatment! What has your treatment there consisted of, other than bupe? (I assume there's more to it than just meeting with a doctor every so often, since you seem to have befriended some of the other patients there.)
As to the question of whether it's a scam: have you compared what they charge to the rates charged by other clinics that offer similar levels of service? I'm guessing that private substance-abuse programs are pretty expensive.
-elizabeth
Posted by Sally green on June 14, 2002, at 7:37:40
In reply to Re: BUPRENEX/Pain management?DETOX? ANYONE? » Sally Green, posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2002, at 0:26:09
Hi Elizabeth:
Some of the questions I answered in the last letter. However, how can you say that a clinic that offers 3 detox programs with scheduled protocals of 1 week, 3-4 week and 6 weeks that has these people in the detox program for years is not doing anything unethical? It is illegal to use Buprenex to detox without an Investigational New Drug Certificate, which is not offered in my state. The clinic is only opened 1 day a week, so there is not any type of other services etc. However, their website says that they offer psycological counseling and other services. No WAY! One day a week. Walk in, 3 minute appointment, walk out, bag full of Buprenex, Serex and Restorils. There are people leaving this clinic with 160 bottles of Bup, 100 Serex and 100 Restorils. If you are not familiar with the other 2 drugs. Serex is similar to Valium, anti-anxiety and Restorils are for sleep. Any doctor who would prescribe these drugs on a normal basis would never prescribe more than one Restoril per evening at bedtime and maybe 2 Serex to be used during the day for anxiety. Maximum of Restorils is 30 day supply, one per night!
There were several of us who went to this clinic together and so we discuss our programs. My closest friend started there with one document, slight muscle strain/sprain, that if taken to his family dr, would not have been given a couple of vicodin and prescribed rest and hot compresses. He is leaving that clinic with all of the amounts of drugs I stated above! He has gone from doing 2 amps of Buprenex, when we started to 7.25 per day in just 12 weeks! This doctor even offered him a slip of paper that if he got stuck out of town etc and needed more, just call and he will fed ex it anywhere in the US to him. My friend is a millionaire!! A detox, with a pricing structure quoting the maximum detox costs as $2000, has cost him over $5000 to date and the decreasing of his meds has not even begun! At the very least, these folks offer 3 different detox programs that include cutting the amounts of drugs being received, in half, after the second week and then a "minimal, regulated amount of Buprenex" given for the remainder of the program. This doctor has literally double and tripled the amounts of these drugs.
I don't need to just concentrate on my situation. I have a master's degree and have been around the medical profession all of my life. Love to research and learn, plenty of Sally to go around. I know one thing. When I see my friends getting this addicted to anything, especially something that was supposed to detox them, I must get involved. I can not just sit back and watch these things happen. If these folks aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to worry about, right? Once this drug is approved for detox there will be alot of sincere medical professionals who will want to open detox clinics using Buprenex and clinics like this may hold up things many years! I inquired about opening a detox clinic, in my area, to use Buprenex, and was told all of the things I am telling you today. I received all of this information from the FDA and the DEA! Fortunately, I am at my sharpest and most capable to do this. Trust me, had these people been practicing their promised protocals etc I would have nothing but praise for their organization! I am all for helping anyone overcome what ails them and make the most of their lives. These folks are blatantly breaking the law and like you said getting away with it because of some legal loop hole! They won't be getting away with it much longer. As I stated, people in authority find them suspious, to say the least. The clinic lies, when asked by those who regulate these type facilities, as to what they are doing with Buprenex. They claim they are not detoxing anyone. AND really that is true. I have yet to meet one person who has successfully detoxed through this program and when you seek out this information about success rates etc. it can not be found because they are not allowed to be doing it!!! Therefore no research or information is being kept on these folks who started the program for detox. Patients have all been conveniently converted to pain management or depression patients, charge a $1250 first time detox rate and forced into a long term program, based on that one document that they had to provide upon their first visit! If they were going to "call" us pain management patients, why weren't we charged their first time pain management rate of $200? How prosperous for the clinic!!
Sally
Posted by Sally green on June 14, 2002, at 8:09:58
In reply to Re: BUPRENEX/Pain management?DETOX? ANYONE? » Elizabeth, posted by Sally green on June 14, 2002, at 7:37:40
Hi Again Elizabeth:
Still getting used to this site, only my third day, please have mercy! One other question was about the med girl that you responded she is just a delivery person. No such luck! She is the receprtionist/pharmacist! The doctor hands her your folder and she gets in the drug safe and fills a bag full of the prescribed drugs. You pay her by use of cash, debit or credit card only and leave the office. Appointments are on a once a month basis, with them only being open one day per week. They were only open 3 days this month because the doctor was going on vacation. Literally, if you would have a question or concern, you can only talk to these folks one day per week.
Yes, I have seen my friends file. When we started at this clinic, they took us both into our first appointment together! He had never been injured, spent any time in the hospital and this was his first attempt at detox, so he did not have a long history of relapse etc. In fact this was his first back X-ray at 43 years of age!!! He had to call his doctor and schedule x-rays just so that he could satisfy the need for documentation of pain or depression. He barely got into this place! He owns a large company and does alot of physical labor. He took a chance that he would have some type back injury! He did not, just the slight muscle sprain/strain I discussed earlier. Having to do this, in itself, is suspious. If these folks were allowed to detox, they would not have to insist on such documentation!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am interested in learning about your other thoughts about the new info I have given to you. There is just sooooo much that I could say! Maybe these type practices are going on everywhere? I just don't know! What I do know is that I started this clinic with 6 friends and all of them are up to their ears in Buprenex, Serax and Restorils, are spending more money on their detox drugs then they ever spent on their street drugs and are no closer to being clean then when they began!
After discussing with doctors and other clinicians, they do not see a structured protocal being followed either.
Thanks
Sally
Posted by Sally green on June 14, 2002, at 11:58:17
In reply to Re: BUPRENEX/Pain management?DETOX? ANYONE? » Sally Green, posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2002, at 0:26:09
Hi Elizabeth:
First, yes cervical spine surgery. What other type cervical surgery would there be? I wrote to you and answered alot of your other questions. Are you a doctor? Psychiatrist? When I mentioned the word overdose to the young lady about Buprenex, you basically told her the same thing. She used too much! That is the definition of overdose, took more than you should have! Should not self prescribe these type meds! Right? But to tell her she may have been better off with what ever dose you recommended, unless you are a doctor, I think she should seek professional advise about the use of Buprenex. My studies show Buprenex to be 25-50 times more potent than morphine!!! Who are we to give her any advise on usage! However, her testimony states she did not get out of bed for three days, very tired, depressed, vomiting etc, sounds like an overdosing of Buprenex.
Sally
Posted by ben on June 15, 2002, at 7:14:56
In reply to Re: BUPRENEX/Pain management?DETOX? ANYONE? » Sally Green, posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2002, at 0:26:09
I suffer from chronic leg pain (somatoform /psychosomatic ?) and depression. Could Buprenorphine be an option ? What are the side effects ? Sedation Dysphoria.... ?
Posted by Sally green on June 15, 2002, at 11:00:52
In reply to Re: BUPRENEX save for depression ?, posted by ben on June 15, 2002, at 7:14:56
Hi Ben:
I have just begun using Buprenex injectables for chronic neck and back pain. I have suffered with pain from injurues and surgeries for 22 years and have tried all other therapies and medications.
Personally, I like the Buprenex. I have found that I can use alot less to have desired pain relief, I do not get tired or suffer from some of the side effects that I have seen other people report. I can emphasize with you concerning the leg pain. I have fybromyalgia and at times my legs can ache so bad, like a terrible tooth ache. There have been days where I could barely walk because of the pain in my legs. I also used to get depressed because I could not do the things I needed to do because my legs and neck hurt so badly. Is your depression also because of your inability to meet physical demands or do you have diagnosed clinical depression? Since beginning the Buprenex I have not experienced any of my pain from the fybromyalgia, including the leg pain.
However, I am not a doctor. If you have a family physian who has followed your case and knows your history, you may want to ask him/her to prescribe the drug for you to try. Only testing the med with the supervision of your doctor will truly be able to answer your questions. I have been on many sites pertaining to Buprenex. I am surprised to see how much the side effects, withdrawel situations etc, vary. From what I have read, at different chat sites, www.medline.com and similar, patients either love Buprenex and it agrees with them or they dislike it all together. Either they have very minimal withdrawel etc or they experience serious withdrawel when they do not have the med or try to stop using. There does not seem to be alot of inbetween. Again, if I run out and must wait for my prescriptions to arrive, only have 1 amp all day etc, I can still use the one amp and have significant pain relief all day with only minor discomfort. No withdrawel or excessive tiredness.
Currently I am using one amp or .3mg every 4-6 hours, which is the dosage recommended by the manufacturers and listed on the package insert and PDR. PDR says .3mg every 6 hours. Also states can be administered by use of .3mg and another .3mg, 30-60 minutes later and then only when needed afterwards. I have been experimenting with different dosages to see which of these routines offers the best results. It seems, for me, that a larger dose first thing in the morning carries me through many hours. I have tried to use less, but it seems to not offer complete pain relief unless I use the 3-4 amps per day.
You seem to be a perfect candidate for using Buprenex. It is approved for use in pain management and depression. But, without knowing your entire patient history, only you and your doctor can make that decision. If you do start using Buprenex and get a prescription from your doctor, the cheapest I have been able to find it is at CyberPharmacy.com., they charge 2.72 per ampule. I asked my local Walmart and they wanted 34.47 per amp. The price varies greatly! However, you will need a prescription.
Personally, after a long battle with trying to find appropriate pain management, over using opiates, in and out of physical therapy, chiropractic care, accupuncture, Buprenex has been a God send! Talk with your doc and Good luck! I hope that if given the Buprenex, you will experience the same wonderful pain relief and absence of side effects that I have experienced.
Sincerely,
Sally
Posted by ben on June 15, 2002, at 11:50:53
In reply to Re: BUPRENEX save for depression ? » ben, posted by Sally green on June 15, 2002, at 11:00:52
Hi Sally
Many Thanks for your long reply
ben
see:
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