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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 15:13:08
I had this idea how to make benzos non-addictive.....because basically they are all we have that really works for most chronic anxiety sufferers .
I noticed that when you combine benzos with relaxants which can be cannibas...anti-cholinerigic muscle relaxants or dare I say it "heroin" that the effect gets doubled, tripled, etc in relation to the mix ratio..
the main problem with benzos...the only real problem is that the body requires more very quickly..but say you had an effective amplification agent probably a muscle relaxant..
what you do in a typical month prescription of " benzo combo" is on day one have the full dose with no amplification agent..tapering off to say 10% by day 30 but also mixing an increasing amount of amplification agent each day so that by day 30 you have
that 10% benzo amplied 10 times....Understand that I would need to plot a graph but basically as each day of the thirty commences the amount of benzo drops while the amount of amplifier (in the same pill) increases..so each pill is different ratio each day and needs to be taken in sequence.
by day 31 you just start the whole thing again and the addiction cycle has been beaten by the metabolization increase of the amplification agent...
Is this idea feasible ? it seems novel to me....anybody know of any similiar ideas, drugs or research or even better would anybody pass this idea on to someone who can use it...
Posted by judy1 on June 9, 2002, at 20:10:19
In reply to idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 15:13:08
It's been my experience (and probably that of most other anxiety/panic sufferers) that there is no need to increase benzo dose for anxiety. If you are taking it for the sedating effect, then you can expect to develope tolerance. However, with anxiety the dose should remain the same. - Take care, judy
Posted by Alan on June 9, 2002, at 22:04:10
In reply to Re: idea to make benzos non-addictive.. » omega man, posted by judy1 on June 9, 2002, at 20:10:19
> It's been my experience (and probably that of most other anxiety/panic sufferers) that there is no need to increase benzo dose for anxiety. If you are taking it for the sedating effect, then you can expect to develope tolerance. However, with anxiety the dose should remain the same. - Take care, judy
==============================================
All of the research I've ever seen and my own personal experience tells me that chronic anxiety sufferers taking BZD's keep their dose the same over many years while many dosages even decline. If more than a reasonable amount of tolerance develops, increases rapidly or if one feels "high", etc, those are all contraindicators for BZD's. Fortunately this is for a small minority of the population.Your idea is an interesting one but perhaps would be viewed by most of mainstream psychiatry - at least here in the US - as simply trading one controlled substance for another...unlikely to solve the type of problem that you and some others experience re: the above mentioned contraindicators.
Alan
Posted by JonW on June 10, 2002, at 12:14:41
In reply to Re: idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by Alan on June 9, 2002, at 22:04:10
I never lost the anti-anxiety from a low dose of benzos and in fact could have gotten by with a lower dose than what I was taking. This is usually the case with people who have actual anxiety disorders... maybe you should be honest and ask yourself if you're not abusing the benzos rather than using them?
Jon
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 12:19:34
In reply to Re: idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by Alan on June 9, 2002, at 22:04:10
I though that the reason many people here write to psycho-babble is due to Pdocs stopping prescribing BZD's due to addcition and prescribing AD's instead...
I found myself that just having them there was helpfull and I only got greedy a few times..but looks like i've got the wrong idea...however in this part of the world BZD's are the number 2 choice drug of abuse..
I'm still puzzled..BZD's are definately addictive, in that you have to keep taking more for the same effect...you develop tolerance..and thats why prescription quidelines are just to prescribe for three weeks usually, same procedure in psychiatric wards here..
is'nt the reason chronic sufferers maintain their doses because
A) they realise this is limited ticket but its all they have and so they use it wisely rather than as much as they would like to if it did'nt have tolerance..because they have to...nobody will prescribe ever increasing doses.
b) when you are seriously ill and need something to fight your way to living..youre less likley to get hooked. because the drugs just a tool.
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 13:13:05
In reply to Re: idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by JonW on June 10, 2002, at 12:14:41
I don't think I abuse them..I get bottles of 60 for 8 weeks and I don't need them all..I rarely take more than one a day..except if I have some heavy stress...well I have'nt taken any since friday nite...I have however got into anti-productive states when I decide not to have any round and stress levels get high..people have to say to me you need help..and I realize my excitability is helping nobody..including myself..so I go and put in for another prescription..and wow when I take one I realize what a hyper useless state I was in..
I did used to abuse them though and had a great time ..but thats another story...
Posted by Alan on June 10, 2002, at 18:01:38
In reply to Re: idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 12:19:34
> I though that the reason many people here write to psycho-babble is due to Pdocs stopping prescribing BZD's due to addcition and prescribing AD's instead...
>
> I found myself that just having them there was helpfull and I only got greedy a few times..but looks like i've got the wrong idea...however in this part of the world BZD's are the number 2 choice drug of abuse..
>
> I'm still puzzled..BZD's are definately addictive, in that you have to keep taking more for the same effect...you develop tolerance..and thats why prescription quidelines are just to prescribe for three weeks usually, same procedure in psychiatric wards here..
>
> is'nt the reason chronic sufferers maintain their doses because
>
> A) they realise this is limited ticket but its all they have and so they use it wisely rather than as much as they would like to if it did'nt have tolerance..because they have to...nobody will prescribe ever increasing doses.
>
> b) when you are seriously ill and need something to fight your way to living..youre less likley to get hooked. because the drugs just a tool.
=============================================
NO. The fallacy is that true anxiety sufferers (without a history of abuse) do NOT escalate their dosage. You are at the epicenter of misunderstanding about the effects of BZD's - the UK. Dr. Heather Ashton of the UK (an addiction specialist) has provided more fodder for the anti benzo movement than any single person on earth. Her "speculations" are musings on existing studies and not results of her own scientific research. It's one of the truest misinformation campaigns existing in medicine today - that of the anti-benzo crusaders (a non-medical, political and moralistic movement with no basis whatsoever in scientific or medical thought or research).Sorry you've been a victim of this strident minority's campaign but if you read the report on the "Rational use of Benzodiazapines" put out by the World Health Organisation about 5 years ago, the summary is that after review of all of the studies in existence, long and short term use of BZD's is safe and effective for those properly diagnosed with chronic anxiety disorders. Period.
Old myths die hard. Especially when politics and moralising about the usage of controlled substances become intertwined with overwhelming medical evidence.
Alan
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on June 10, 2002, at 18:11:29
In reply to idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 15:13:08
It is not that simple to make benzos non-addictive.Benzos activate what is called the gaba sysytem in the brain and I cannot see how your idea would work at molecular level
Posted by omega man on June 11, 2002, at 0:32:39
In reply to Re: idea to make benzos non-addictive.. » omega man, posted by Alan on June 10, 2002, at 18:01:38
mmn you really got me thinking now....I find BZD's addictive..in fact everyone i know does...
after 12 weeks most people I know say you need 2 xanax to get the same effect as one...perpaps we should have a new thread on this point ....maybe some of have some predispostion ...
Posted by Essence on June 11, 2002, at 6:45:14
In reply to Re: interesting.. » Alan, posted by omega man on June 11, 2002, at 0:32:39
I was on Xanax, .50/4 QID for 7 years and never needed to increase my dosage to maintain my anxiety and panic disorder. My psydoc took me off them 2 yrs ago as the sedative sideaffect was affecting my life. I went two years without any use of a benzo and now have been on Klonopin for the past 3 1/2 months, .50/ BID. I'm not happy about having to be on a benzo again, they scare me, especially Klonopin, and especially having gone through the withdrawal of coming off the Xanax, I was definately physically addicted to it, but I had to choose between not functioning at any level to getting some sort of life back. To sum it up, in my experience, the need to increase the benzo for continued response wasn't an issue.
Posted by johnj on June 11, 2002, at 9:23:21
In reply to Re: interesting.., posted by Essence on June 11, 2002, at 6:45:14
I was on 15 mg of tranxene for 5 or more years. Dropped the dose to 7.5 mg and finshed grad school and even went abroad for a period of time. I recently had to go back to 15 mg and even up ANOTHER 7.5 to help my sleep during the week. Dr. Bob had a listing of sites about benzo's month or so ago and they talked about both cases occuring. That sometimes when a person goes off they eventually have to go back to their original dose and sometimes evern MORE.
If it is pure panic disorder maybe one can get by without ever increasing the dose, but to ME, there is such a fine line between anxiety/depression/panic disorder that makes it very very hard to know who has what. I don't think I quite know what I am myself. Do docs even know how to dx this effectively????
johnj
Posted by joy on June 11, 2002, at 15:25:06
In reply to idea to make benzos non-addictive.., posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 15:13:08
I've been on Alaprozam [generic Xanax] for a couple of years. I have not increased my dose. I generally take .5 at night; only sometimes in the day time. Rarely, have I had to take more than .5 mgs. I have skipped a few nights; no problem at all. I just think it helps me with insomnia [combined with Trazodone] and it's great for anxiety attacks [which I have a lot less of fortunately].
Joy
This is the end of the thread.
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