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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by christophrejmc on June 4, 2002, at 15:20:49
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
Posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:40:44
> >
Posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 18:42:54
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
> Perhaps only a small percentage of us have what it takes mentally to navigate ourselves thru these chemical options with common sense usage for the better...certainly ten years later...my life has gone from horrible to great..but I would say hand on heart that the illegal ones have helped play 50% part in that process.
Hi omega man,
I agree with you that drugs are just chemicals, be them legal or illegal. However, most people who have a history of cannibas, ecstasy, and heroin use also have a history of drug abuse. You may go on to develop a drug problem, or you may be an exception. Most illegal drugs are toxic, addictive, and are counterproductive when trying to treat mental illness. As long as your drug use -- be it legal or illegal -- doesn't hurt me or anyone else, then I have to say I'm glad you found something that works for you. But I absolutely oppose recommending your method to anyone who is mentally ill. There are no statistics I'm aware of that support what you are saying, and plenty of statistics that support the notion that street drugs ultimately ruin peoples lives. You may be the exception, but don't let that cloud your thinking. There may be "hopeless" and horrible situations where heroin use could be justified, but mainstream use would clearly have a negative impact on society.
Jon
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2002, at 19:03:45
In reply to i agree. illegal drugs = evil (nm) » SassyMom33, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
> illegal drugs = evil
I think discussion about this is OK, but remember that it needs to be civil, thanks!
Bob
Posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
your view is very one dimensional. you need to look at the big picture. not just 'your' situation with drugs. the reality is that illegal drugs ruin more lives than they help. and nothing can be said against that. you say they can be fine in intelligent responsible hands... well guess what, most people who use such drugs aren't too intelligent.>to deny ourselves pleasure by having no legal >recreational drugs seems perverse
you dont want to know what i think is perverse. these drugs ruin our society and the adults using them enfluences the children. so what do we get? little 13 year olds going crazy on extacy. it's disturbing.
Posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 20:39:55
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
In the interest of taking the middle ground, I'd just like to politely point out that "street drugs", in pure form and under the control of a physician, can and do in fact have valid therapeutic purposes.Although I agree with the essence of the arguments against street drugs, it saddens me to see so much polarization on this issue, as such behavior usually tends towards obscurement of the facts in favor of emotional fanaticism. And it is exactly this kind of fanaticism that has the potential to hinder legitimate scientific research into controversial, but therapeutic medications.
For a specific example, please see my opinion/assessment of MDMA, known as the street drug Ecstacy:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020602/msgs/108695.html
Now that I've painted the bullseye, I'll just put my rain slicker on... let the produce fly! ;)
-Steven
Posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 21:32:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 20:39:55
> Although I agree with the essence of the arguments against street drugs, it saddens me to see so much polarization on this issue, as such behavior usually tends towards obscurement of the facts in favor of emotional fanaticism. And it is exactly this kind of fanaticism that has the potential to hinder legitimate scientific research into controversial, but therapeutic medications.
Hi Xevious,I hope you didn't take my post to be on the opposite pole as you. I believe in the bottom line and agree with having an open mind, however, do you really believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs? I agree that we should oppose attitudes that hinder research, however, I also think we should oppose attitudes that increase mainstream drug abuse.
Jon
p.s. duck... here comes a tomato! ;)
Posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 21:58:11
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » Xevious, posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 21:32:28
Actually, I completely agree with what you said, Jon. I just wanted to advocate the middle ground of seeing street drugs not as "good" or "evil," but for what they really are - drugs that are unfortunately abused too frequently, to ill effects.And no, I don't believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs, although I will fight vigorously for the continued freedom of our great nation's pharmaceutical companies to gouge consumers with legal medications! ;) IMHO, the street drug problem is a sad paradox that seems to have no clear answers.
I advocate education, compassion and rehabilitation. Most importantly, I advocate me getting off of this emotionally charged subject before someone dumps a whole crate of tomatoes on me! ;)
-Steven
>
> I hope you didn't take my post to be on the opposite pole as you. I believe in the bottom line and agree with having an open mind, however, do you really believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs? I agree that we should oppose attitudes that hinder research, however, I also think we should oppose attitudes that increase mainstream drug abuse.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. duck... here comes a tomato! ;)
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
the reality is that illegal drugs ruin more lives than they help. and nothing can be said against that.
Except for the fact that tobacco and alcohol kill more people and cause more problems than all the illegal drugs combined. It is a mistake to use
the legal status of a drug to decide if it is good or bad.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:24:12
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:40:44
I can see from you reply we could have a whole discussion about the usefullness of "altered states"...altering your mental state gives you another view from which to see things...and having a drawer full of stuff that give me varieties of ways to see and feel things is very usefull indeed...
to answer your points raised my initial information about ectasy was from videotapes of a subject given ectasy in a lab/psychiatry environment...where his first words when MDMA hit his head were "I feel like music, I feel like I need to dance"...
for heroin...I never use a needle so i'm not taking the all or nothing risk you indicated...I don't go for that sort of risk..nearly all my life threatining situations were due to the untested combos people try on themselves who post to psycho-babble..but i'm not critizing that..its great all that stuff is availible...i just find it more frightening than the things I do to myself..
aside from heroin and cocaine which are useless to most peoples everyday lives I just don't see legal/non legal as being a good indicator of whats going to be helpfull and what is'nt....cigarettes are a very quick way to destroy yourslf yet we let that happen...
The law seem to be more of a warning as to whats happened within certain groups of people...I don't think I ever said to legalize the drugs I had mentioned..I was making a wider point that we don't market and license drugs for recreational use anymore...we have done and we know what those are....but like I say MDMA helped me unclog stuff from my brain and once the process is over it was very much like a classic psychiatry success except I did'nt need three months probing.....just one session....
LSD was liberating too...
some of the deeper mental processes you can release can be so very helpfull...in that i'm taking about religous experiences and I hope you realize how good that can be for everybody....
As for "drug induced realities" what do you call the state of constant multiple prescription most people here live through ?It does not matter if a reality is drug induced..if its usefull to that persons health or results in people getting ideas or states of being that hopefully turn out to be fruitfull or productive...
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:29:47
In reply to i agree. illegal drugs = evil (nm) » SassyMom33, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
adamie...I don't know what sort of problems you have experienced...and I hope you need never have take anything thats illegal and feel the pressure that goes with it..but terms like "evil" don't really mean anything to me..Try to think what youre really trying to say in terms of specific ideas or all I know is that you feel very strongly against what I say..but not why.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:41:07
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
I do look at big pictures..but what I said here was just me saying my story...
its true what you say about the influence on kids..and whoever supplies anything to them..would be greedy or destructive or stupid...
we already have in place different allowances for people of certain status or IQ...the laws are there I suppose as a resevoir of well founded warning or a bottom line for many who cant understand why they exist...and to be involved in breaking any is something I would really have to seriously consider why I'm doing that...after all anything that made its way to actually being written in law has obviously deep importance to us all..
I think many laws about drugs like Cannnibis LSD and MDMA only exist because its an unknown quantity with no practical use.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:42:35
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
illegal drugs tend to ruin lives when abused.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:52:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
thanks for replying..had to get that out of me..then I saw all these replies and wrote replies one by one..but I can see for the most I have been well understood....yes most illegal drugs are that way for reasons of destructive to living...or if not used properly they are..I mean if you could legislate that somebody could only drink alcohol at weekends then you would cut out the addictive personalities....and heroin..I should say is bad for 90% people who try it....similarly your average person does tend to abuse drugs...when I have some new prescription I have friends whose first reaction is "lets try 6 of them" ...but thats Scotland where segments of the population are mentality...self destructive....its also the reason I can get my hands on anything really easy here..and try it ..seeing with my eyes open the bad side...
Its just good sense..I think there are people pre-disposed to addiction...they there are people who abuse drugs who tend to just have the wrong attitude about living but they did'nt know because their whole community has..or ..they have little concept of themselves or their potential..or some other problem..
Its quite possible to use your head with illegal drugs and be Ok ..these substances did'nt get so popular as to be banned without having some real benefits...So I can look at something like MDMA and see if I could get help from it..why else would I do it ? So from that point when I got to psycho-babble the initial reaction was "wow , everybody in the USA is really into trying new drug combos that have not been tested as safe"
what I saw here looked scarier than anything I did..posts like "HELP EFFEXOR giving me ELECTRIC BRAIN SHOCKS " etc etc etc....plus having seen quite a high turnover of people who post here...makes me wonder how many still are.....here...I suppose this is a new thread but people here are combining as much as six drugs in their system..many prescribed from multiple doctors...and I know its due to being mentally sick and trying to find a way..but from what I know these drugs are not clinically tested like this ..I nearly died due to prescribed combos by different doctors..and many people here are the test experiment.....thats just as risky as me needing omega3 for winter blues ...(omega having not had proper trials yet)...
So my point is the law is not a good indicator..and so if it not then is the guidleines for using your prescrptions drug i.e. " take as much as you need but make absolutely sure you take one a day every day as long as you like..in fact be very carefull about stopping "....should I add be very carefull about stopping because we need your money !!
I don't particularly trust the legal rhetoric regarding drugs at the moment..
Posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:52:01
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » adamie, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:41:07
that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?
beardy : )>
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 14:18:13
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » oracle, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:42:35
> illegal drugs tend to ruin lives when abused.
But legal drugs (tobacco and alcohol) kill more people and cause more problems than all the illegal drugs combined. Anything abused will cause harm.
My point is that using a legal definition
to brand one drug "evil" and the other not
is not a valid argument. The legal drugs cause the most harm and death.
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:52:34
> Its quite possible to use your head with illegal drugs and be Ok ..these substances did'nt get so popular as to be banned without having some real benefits...So I can look at something like MDMA and see if I could get help from it..why else would I do it ? So from that point when I got to psycho-babble the initial reaction was "wow , everybody in the USA is really into trying new drug combos that have not been tested as safe"
> what I saw here looked scarier than anything I did..posts like "HELP EFFEXOR giving me ELECTRIC BRAIN SHOCKS " etc etc etc....plus having seen quite a high turnover of people who post here...makes me wonder how many still are.....here...Hi omega man,
It may be possible for you to use illegal drugs without a problem but that doesn't mean this is true for the population in general. In my opinion, pushing this idea of "safe" drug use could only affect the general population in a negative way. Take the following excerpt from a paper about MDMA, for example:
"Apart from the small number of people who have reported improvement or resolution of emotional or personality problems after the use of MDMA in psychotherapy, the long-term effects are virtually all adverse ones. They are all thought to arise from a neurotoxic action of the methylenedioxy derivatives of the amphetamines."
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11599334&dopt=Abstract)This does not support what you are saying. Yes, ecstasy feels good, but for the majority that's not the same as having real benefit and without great risk. Where is the data to support what you are saying? Similar claims were once made about LSD being useful for patients in therapy, but in at least one study no lasting benefit was found in a 10 year follow-up study of such patients. There is plenty of data that supports the safety and efficacy of effexor. I know the United States is full of politics and the drug companies are only in it for the money, but we still go by the data and get things right most of the time.
Maybe the turnover here in psycho-babble is a bad sign, but maybe it's a good sign, too. Show me the data that supports the idea that more people die from the "cocktails" prescribed than ecstasy or heroin use and I may change my mind about things. I don't mean to come across as saying these drugs are "evil" because I certainly don't think that. I mean, if any given chemical happens to improve the quality of life for someone with a horrible prognosis I think they should have legal access to it. But I can see how having such laws is a very tricky business.
Jon
p.s. I don't think tapering drugs when you discontinue them is a marketing ploy. Believe me, I hardly taper when I stop a drug and almost always suffer for it ;)
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:41:03
In reply to It's illegal to take prescription drugs..., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:52:01
the true evil is in the ignorance of people and how they feel their behaviour is acceptable. illegal drug use causes enfluence towards others to try it as well. and this all spreads towards the children. so yes the illegal drug users are evil. unless you are in the 1% of the population who absolutely needs them for reasons such as finding no medication to help your mental illness then it is selfish and wrong. and the drug user may not care about damaging their body but others care about them. how would you feel if you had a son taking heroin? it's disgusting. and the general population is too. which can be clearly seen here.
> that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:44:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 14:18:13
yes they do. but that doesn't remove the fact that illegal drugs do far more harm than good. you need to look at the big picture. not just yourself. you want the whole world messed up on drugs? i am glad that when i have a child i will raise 'her' right.> My point is that using a legal definition
> to brand one drug "evil" and the other not
> is not a valid argument. The legal drugs cause the most harm and death.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 17:48:53
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
what i'm trying to say is that prescribed drugs tend to have no fun effects ...which can enhance non-clinincal creative pursuits..although many do..it tends to be the illegal ones which have this quality..but to me the line gets blurred..I'll put omega 3 on top of my list as a mixer for many drugs...in fact I won't do some class A drugs without omega3 to offset the Neural burnout...along with good eating, exercise having a creative life and lots of fresh air and friends who look out for you...perhaps having all the dimensions that constitute a healthy life help support this creative non-abusive dabbling..
put it this way I have certain rules regarding certain drug...well for every drug really...
Heroin-expect a 2 week recovery before you get back to the energy state you had previously to taking it..and thats for one time use..also that rules applies to MDMA..
Prozac-keep the diet bland and put plenty of time aside for sleep.
Omega3-only take before sleeping or risk facial paralysis.
and so on for about 12 drugs I have each with its own "spell" or use ..
with such variety and the drugs being slave to real living purpose..I find thats the key...and when I see the posts here its scary how slaved people are ...so I wonder why don't drug companies come up with developing one time one hit remedies...which I believe MDMA has the potential to be along with an approved psycotherapy programme...
I don't believe drug companies try to fool us...I'm a non-conspiracist...but certain structures in drug development occur because they are a product of business interest...
A one time one hit cure would never cover the development costs so it make you wonder if anybody is even trying or able to get the grants to research this.
I suppose i'm talking about gene switching drugs..which read the profile from your DNA to see what transmitter cocktail you have and just switching in the healthier sequence..and thats it..
I would hope this is being researched because the money would still be there in providing the individual service, but we'll probably have to wait for some organization to get innovative and do this before the big companies show any sign of wanting to stop selling us "one size fits all, take em every day bullets"
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:49:24
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
i agree with some of what you say. and so what if many people on this forum complain about various problems with these medications? the fact is that most of the people who are helped by these meds with very few problems do not post. Simply because they are busy living their happy and restored lives.> Hi omega man,
>
> It may be possible for you to use illegal drugs without a problem but that doesn't mean this is true for the population in general. In my opinion, pushing this idea of "safe" drug use could only affect the general population in a negative way. Take the following excerpt from a paper about MDMA, for example:
>
> "Apart from the small number of people who have reported improvement or resolution of emotional or personality problems after the use of MDMA in psychotherapy, the long-term effects are virtually all adverse ones. They are all thought to arise from a neurotoxic action of the methylenedioxy derivatives of the amphetamines."
> (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11599334&dopt=Abstract)
>
> This does not support what you are saying. Yes, ecstasy feels good, but for the majority that's not the same as having real benefit and without great risk. Where is the data to support what you are saying? Similar claims were once made about LSD being useful for patients in therapy, but in at least one study no lasting benefit was found in a 10 year follow-up study of such patients. There is plenty of data that supports the safety and efficacy of effexor. I know the United States is full of politics and the drug companies are only in it for the money, but we still go by the data and get things right most of the time.
>
> Maybe the turnover here in psycho-babble is a bad sign, but maybe it's a good sign, too. Show me the data that supports the idea that more people die from the "cocktails" prescribed than ecstasy or heroin use and I may change my mind about things. I don't mean to come across as saying these drugs are "evil" because I certainly don't think that. I mean, if any given chemical happens to improve the quality of life for someone with a horrible prognosis I think they should have legal access to it. But I can see how having such laws is a very tricky business.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. I don't think tapering drugs when you discontinue them is a marketing ploy. Believe me, I hardly taper when I stop a drug and almost always suffer for it ;)
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:53:18
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » JonW, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 17:48:53
extacy a good treatment? uh sure, in the short term. that short period you are on it. then in return you get brain damage and increased depression due to seratonin burnout. extacy is a horrible disgusting drug.
> what i'm trying to say is that prescribed drugs tend to have no fun effects ...which can enhance non-clinincal creative pursuits..although many do..it tends to be the illegal ones which have this quality..but to me the line gets blurred..I'll put omega 3 on top of my list as a mixer for many drugs...in fact I won't do some class A drugs without omega3 to offset the Neural burnout...along with good eating, exercise having a creative life and lots of fresh air and friends who look out for you...perhaps having all the dimensions that constitute a healthy life help support this creative non-abusive dabbling..
>
> put it this way I have certain rules regarding certain drug...well for every drug really...
>
> Heroin-expect a 2 week recovery before you get back to the energy state you had previously to taking it..and thats for one time use..also that rules applies to MDMA..
>
> Prozac-keep the diet bland and put plenty of time aside for sleep.
>
> Omega3-only take before sleeping or risk facial paralysis.
>
> and so on for about 12 drugs I have each with its own "spell" or use ..
>
> with such variety and the drugs being slave to real living purpose..I find thats the key...and when I see the posts here its scary how slaved people are ...so I wonder why don't drug companies come up with developing one time one hit remedies...which I believe MDMA has the potential to be along with an approved psycotherapy programme...
>
> I don't believe drug companies try to fool us...I'm a non-conspiracist...but certain structures in drug development occur because they are a product of business interest...
>
> A one time one hit cure would never cover the development costs so it make you wonder if anybody is even trying or able to get the grants to research this.
>
> I suppose i'm talking about gene switching drugs..which read the profile from your DNA to see what transmitter cocktail you have and just switching in the healthier sequence..and thats it..
>
> I would hope this is being researched because the money would still be there in providing the individual service, but we'll probably have to wait for some organization to get innovative and do this before the big companies show any sign of wanting to stop selling us "one size fits all, take em every day bullets"
Posted by skills on June 5, 2002, at 17:56:32
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
omegaman i could not have put it better myself. Shame some people do not have the knowledge to blow off the blinkered views of a pharmacutically confused society, far better suited to the mid-twentieth century when these substances first became widely avalible to the masses.
Posted by jonh kimble on June 5, 2002, at 17:57:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
Very interesting stuff, and its good to be back. Many good points here, and i just wanted to add my 2 cents.
being in high school, as i am, certainly brings its temptations for drug experimentation. cannabis brought great self awarness. i hate to say it, but its true. like i can step above my life and view everything that goes on in a different (and perhaps more truthful) view point. only problem is cannabis makes my social phobia go thru the roof. hallucinogins did same with both, only more so.
why is it so bad to experience something in an altered state. these are chemicals effecting your brain, true, but every moment of every day the way we are is affected by chemicals in our brains. and who would know better than the people on this board. i dont mean to sound harsh, but is this not so?
obviously these drugs have there negatives, but they also have there pros. i have to say that i was responsible with my useage, but many people are not. whether or not greater education would help this i dont know. but like a prievious post said, its sad that we lock people away when they abuse drugs when we should get them help. get the problem at the roots. if biochemical abnormalities seem most likely, maybe psychiatric drugs would be the answer. if someone lost a loved one, maybe counselling would be best. but to give people who are suffering more suffering seems illogical. just my thoughts.
jon
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 18:02:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:53:18
When I need a quick AD hit I find the withdrawal from Ectasy on a par with effexor...usually the deciding factor is do I want to do it a few times..then I'll go with the effexor...but effexor is a bit more numbing and lacks the transmitter hit to get the trip required to exume an emotional trauma from you in a day....very handy when something really heavy happens and you still have to perform properly in a work situation where understanding is not aviliable and results are what counts.
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