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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kitty-layne on November 12, 2001, at 23:31:13
I've read about yohimbine, sounds interesting, vaguely remember someone mentioning on this site that they'd used it for dysthymia. Has anyone medicated themselves with this who could share their experiences? I am a lazy, unhappy person with no job, who has been diagnosed with depression (although I think dysthymia sounds more like me). I'm the lethargic nervous type. I'd like to sort myself out, but I can't seem to pick myself up for long enough to get anywhere, and when I do feel a little better, I often find myself too scared to do the things I want to do, like trying to find work. I've had a few ADs with no successes, psychiatry has left a pretty poor impression of itself in my brain.
To its credit, I read that yohimbine is a MAOI (mmm... more monoamines!), a stimulant (good, I'm always tired) and it strengthens emotions. It would be good not to feel dead so much of the time.
But what are the side effects? Does it increase or decrease anxiety? Is it addictive? Is it safe to use it daily? As it's a reversible MAOI, can it be taken with a normal diet? Finally, have I mistaken a mysteriously legal drug of abuse, which will most likely screw me up (I have the addictive personality), for a therapeutic agent, or could this genuinely help me get my life together?
thanx for your time and knowledge
-
-- K
Posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 11:55:52
In reply to Yohimbine vs. dysthymia/depression, posted by kitty-layne on November 12, 2001, at 23:31:13
I'm not sure on yohimbine, I can only recommend that you do not take the raw herb yohimbe (as is contained in many over the counter products). If you want to try it accept nothing other than yohimbine hcl.
Yohimbe itself has some problems, both in my experience and others, of making anxiety shoot way up, as well as your heart rate. Its like an extremely nervous energy, not pleasant at all.
Yohimbine itself I've heard much more positive things about (the herbal form contains some 10-30 other alkaloids that have properties all their own!). Usually that it increases energy, helps stimulate erections, some people complain of too high of a heart rate but they were using high doses for fat loss. I believe you develop a fairly fast tolerance to it though, like most stimulant drugs. It is also helpful in weight loss (and may be one of the few compounds that can spot reduce fat due to its alpha-2 antagonist properties) Many bodybuilders alternate ephedrine and yohimbine. Take one for a week, take the other for a week (or however you'd like to do it, more than 2 weeks between switches is probably too long). They feel similar to each other (except erections are more difficult on ephedrine), but they seem to counteract each others tolerance (perhaps because ephedrine is primarily a beta-2 agonist, which increases the sensitivity of the alpha-2 receptors, the alpha receptors counteract most of the effects of beta receptors, thus when you go on the yohimbine its alpha-2 antagonist properties reverse that part of the tolerance).Ephedrine and yohimbine both help speed up your metabolism (and you!) and favor the loss of weight to be more by fat loss than muscle loss (if you cared). Caffeine is frequently combined with ephedrine as the two have synergistic effects.
Be aware that this may not be the greatest thing for your heart, and you should not try this if you have any preexisting heart conditions, high blood pressure, or fast pulse rate. It may or may not increase anxiety, depending upon the person and dose. Dose experimentation is obviously very important. Orally I say keep below 6mg, and try doses ranging from 1-6mg to see where the effects are best for you. Its MAOi activities are weak, but both it and ephedrine should not be used with certain drugs due to their norepinephrine releasing properties(no nonselective MAOi's, or other norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors). It has a relatively short half life so you'll probably be dosing it 2-3 times daily.
It releases norepinephrine, as does ephedrine. Making sure your diet is moderate to high in protein or taking an L-phenylaline or L-tyrosine plus B vitamins and vitamin C as cofactors would be a good idea to replace the norepinephrine. Yohimbine could be also be used in lower dosages to counteract the fatigue of the antidepressant/anxiety drugs that agonise the alpha-2 receptor (provided it did not increase anxiety or wasn't contradicted in the patient).
Is it safe to take everyday? We don't know for sure. I would think so provided you only use the minimum dose of it and the dose of ephedrine (should you decide to use the alternating combo) effective for you. Nearly without exception, the people who have died or had bad reactions from using these over the counter stimulants had preexisting heart conditions, took massive dosages, or combined them with other street stimulants. Still, some people seem allergic to ephedrine and yohimbine, and if you get a bad reaction at a dose that isn't too high for the energy/antidepressant level you're seeking, discontinue it! If they increase your blood pressure (they do in some people, in most they just increase pulse rate) then start eating celery, 2 stalks a day everyday...you'd be surprised how well this works on decreasing BP.
The biggest thing I would worry about with you is an increase in anxiety. The herbal form made me nervous, but as I understand it, most people complain of this. I have known 10 other people who took yohimbine (non herbal) and did not say a thing about it. I'd say its worth a try. Perhaps it could be combined with a low dose of a benzo for best results.Well I don't imagine you want to read a book so I'll stop there.
JGalt
Posted by JohnX2 on November 13, 2001, at 14:54:40
In reply to Re: Yohimbine vs. dysthymia/depression, posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 11:55:52
JG,thanks for the wealth of real world data.
regards,
john
> I'm not sure on yohimbine, I can only recommend that you do not take the raw herb yohimbe (as is contained in many over the counter products). If you want to try it accept nothing other than yohimbine hcl.
>
> Yohimbe itself has some problems, both in my experience and others, of making anxiety shoot way up, as well as your heart rate. Its like an extremely nervous energy, not pleasant at all.
>
> Yohimbine itself I've heard much more positive things about (the herbal form contains some 10-30 other alkaloids that have properties all their own!). Usually that it increases energy, helps stimulate erections, some people complain of too high of a heart rate but they were using high doses for fat loss. I believe you develop a fairly fast tolerance to it though, like most stimulant drugs. It is also helpful in weight loss (and may be one of the few compounds that can spot reduce fat due to its alpha-2 antagonist properties) Many bodybuilders alternate ephedrine and yohimbine. Take one for a week, take the other for a week (or however you'd like to do it, more than 2 weeks between switches is probably too long). They feel similar to each other (except erections are more difficult on ephedrine), but they seem to counteract each others tolerance (perhaps because ephedrine is primarily a beta-2 agonist, which increases the sensitivity of the alpha-2 receptors, the alpha receptors counteract most of the effects of beta receptors, thus when you go on the yohimbine its alpha-2 antagonist properties reverse that part of the tolerance).
>
> Ephedrine and yohimbine both help speed up your metabolism (and you!) and favor the loss of weight to be more by fat loss than muscle loss (if you cared). Caffeine is frequently combined with ephedrine as the two have synergistic effects.
>
> Be aware that this may not be the greatest thing for your heart, and you should not try this if you have any preexisting heart conditions, high blood pressure, or fast pulse rate. It may or may not increase anxiety, depending upon the person and dose. Dose experimentation is obviously very important. Orally I say keep below 6mg, and try doses ranging from 1-6mg to see where the effects are best for you. Its MAOi activities are weak, but both it and ephedrine should not be used with certain drugs due to their norepinephrine releasing properties(no nonselective MAOi's, or other norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors). It has a relatively short half life so you'll probably be dosing it 2-3 times daily.
>
> It releases norepinephrine, as does ephedrine. Making sure your diet is moderate to high in protein or taking an L-phenylaline or L-tyrosine plus B vitamins and vitamin C as cofactors would be a good idea to replace the norepinephrine. Yohimbine could be also be used in lower dosages to counteract the fatigue of the antidepressant/anxiety drugs that agonise the alpha-2 receptor (provided it did not increase anxiety or wasn't contradicted in the patient).
>
> Is it safe to take everyday? We don't know for sure. I would think so provided you only use the minimum dose of it and the dose of ephedrine (should you decide to use the alternating combo) effective for you. Nearly without exception, the people who have died or had bad reactions from using these over the counter stimulants had preexisting heart conditions, took massive dosages, or combined them with other street stimulants. Still, some people seem allergic to ephedrine and yohimbine, and if you get a bad reaction at a dose that isn't too high for the energy/antidepressant level you're seeking, discontinue it! If they increase your blood pressure (they do in some people, in most they just increase pulse rate) then start eating celery, 2 stalks a day everyday...you'd be surprised how well this works on decreasing BP.
> The biggest thing I would worry about with you is an increase in anxiety. The herbal form made me nervous, but as I understand it, most people complain of this. I have known 10 other people who took yohimbine (non herbal) and did not say a thing about it. I'd say its worth a try. Perhaps it could be combined with a low dose of a benzo for best results.
>
> Well I don't imagine you want to read a book so I'll stop there.
>
> JGalt
Posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 18:52:18
In reply to Re: Yohimbine vs. dysthymia/depression, posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 11:55:52
First of all, thank you very much for all the information. Just a couple of questions...
> It is helpful in weightloss
Could this be dangerous to someone already a stone below the bottom of the "normal" weight range for their height?
> Many bodybuilders alternate ephedrine and yohimbine. Take one for a week, take the other for a week. They feel similar to each other.
Is ephedrine likely to be as effective as yohimbine for what I'm considering using it for?
> Its MAOi activities are weak, but both it and ephedrine should not be used with certain drugs due to their norepinephrine releasing properties(no nonselective MAOi's, or other norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors).
Other NRI's, such as?
> It has a relatively short half life so you'll probably be dosing it 2-3 times daily.
Does this mean it has a severe withdrawal syndrome?
> Nearly without exception, the people who have died or had bad reactions from using these over the counter stimulants had preexisting heart conditions, took massive dosages, or combined them with other street stimulants.
What is considered a massive dosage?
> The biggest thing I would worry about with you is an increase in anxiety.
I agree.
> Well I don't imagine you want to read a book so I'll stop there.
I'll read it if you write it! I like to know as much as I can about meds before I take them now. I wasn't aware of AD withdrawal until I'd gone cold turkey twice. I had quite a serious experience the first time. Since then I've learned to respect drugs much more (more than the health professionals, anyway :-) ).
Thanks again,
kit
Posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 23:23:21
In reply to Re: Yohimbine vs. dysthymia/depression » JGalt, posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 18:52:18
> Could this be dangerous to someone already a stone below the bottom of the "normal" weight range for their height?The actual amount that it increases your metabolism (same w/ ephedrine) is fairly small, the weight loss comes mostly from appetite suppression. Appetite suppression is the simplest side effect in the world to combat. You just keep on eating even after the "hungry" light in your brain goes out.
> Is ephedrine likely to be as effective as yohimbine for what I'm considering using it for?
Here's my take on ephedrine, when taken without a tolerance. It gives more energy, increased level of happiness, increased motivation, increased sociability, slightly increased aggression that is more along the lines of increased drive and assertiveness, slightly increased appreciation of music (particularly fast music). Now after tolerance sets in you don't get the positive effects as much and the aggression part becomes more noticeable as you are now more irritable and get pissed off easier. Generally this won't occur with tolerance to lower dosage (when you achieve tolerance at lower doses you just have a little more energy than you normally would on a given day) and only occurs when you have achieved tolerance to a high level (125mgs+ a day). If you're alternating with yohimbine, it won't happen and you'll just experience the positive effects mostly. Ephedrine should be dosed 2-3 times daily, depending upon whether or not you suffer from insomnia. It is by far best taken on an empty stomach, or if nothing else not after you've had a lot of sugar.
> Other NRI's, such as?Well I would imagine effexor would not be pleasant, neither would rebotoxine. Anything other than a very low dose (ie, 2-4mg at most) of yohimbine while on 10mg of selegiline would probably also not be much fun.
> Does this mean it has a severe withdrawal syndrome?
Well, after maybe 8 hrs or so you'll feel yourself coming down from it, being less motivated than a few hrs ago, less energetic, and all...not lower than normal though...this is when you redose. If you take yohimbine one day and none the next you may be a little more tired, but not very much. If you're alternating with ephedrine and yohimbine, and you decided to stop both of them, you'd be best off doing it while doing the yohimbine. Gradually dose down over 2-3 days so as to have not withdraw problems. Ephedrine is a little harder to get off of, you will be more tired and less motivated the day after not taking ephedrine if you aren't alternating with yohimbine. Once while dieting down for a competition I was using rather high doses of ephedrine/caffeine and didn't have any yohimbine. When I got down to my target weight, I tried to stop the drugs cold turkey, I slept 16 hrs that day, 13 hrs the next, 10 the next, and then I was back to normal. Lesson to be learned, don't go cold turkey off abusive doses of ephedrine caffeine.
> What is considered a massive dosage?
For ephedrine, the FDA recommends not going over 125mgs/day...I agree. The people I've heard that died were trying 150-400mg single dose. Yohimbine I haven't heard of any deaths from but it has the same potential as with ephedrine, so I'd say trying to take 25mg in a single dose would probably be a recipe for getting a few feet closer to the core of the earth. I wouldn't try over 15mg in a single dose myself of it...I seriously doubt you'd need that much anyway. Start off with 2mg, go up by 1-2 mg's a time till you get where you want to be, alternating with ephedrine ever certain length of time. Ephedrine I imagine 12.5-40mg's/2-3 times a day will be what you want, probably closer to 20mg's a time.
> > The biggest thing I would worry about with you is an increase in anxiety.
>
> I agree.So therefore don't buy much and keep dosages low...Don't purchase a gram of it until you know its right for you.
> I'll read it if you write it! I like to know as much as I can about meds before I take them now. I wasn't aware of AD withdrawal until I'd gone cold turkey twice. I had quite a serious experience the first time. Since then I've learned to respect drugs much more (more than the health professionals, anyway :-) ).
Good to hear that you like researching your meds, I believe everyone (obviously you too) has to take part in their own discovery of medical knowledge if they want the best treatment. There's plenty of info out there on yohimbine, though obviously I've already mentioned a lot...there's much more. If you use a search engine you'll likely come up with 765000 hits for products with the name "herbal viagra". Just don't get anything with yohimbe (as is in herbal viagra) and you should be fine. I cannot stress enough that you only want yohimbine hcl. Let us know if you give it a try.
Also, if you need a bulk supplier for yohimbine or ephedra if they work out for you and you want to go on them for longer term, let me know (I assume that's legal to say on here since I have no affiliation with any place I know that sells it, and yohimbine and ephedra area not scheduled drugs).JGalt
JhnGalt@hotmail.com
Posted by JGalt on November 16, 2001, at 11:47:50
In reply to Re: Yohimbine vs. dysthymia/depression, posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 23:23:21
I did some more research on yohimbine and also took a *small* dose of the herb (250mg, yielding about 5mg of yohimbine and who knows how many herbs, also recall I'm on selegiline, oh well, I don't mind doing things a little risky) yesterday just because it had been so long and I want to get back to alternating this with ephedrine (my supply of real yohimbine is on its way just now).
I should note that the effects of yohimbine will be greatly reduced by the presence of food, particularly insulin.
So anyway, I took it on an empty stomach, and about 15 minutes later I was starting to feel the effects. Definitely norepinephrine release. I started to feel a little cooler too, felt like turning up the thermo stat. The cardiovascular effects were apparant, my pulse was 93 and bp was 113/93. Upon rising, my heart rate would shoot up (this is due to the other alkaloids in yohimbe bark). I noticed a little jaw clenching too. The most interesting effects is the "spine chills". Know how when you're witnessing something very important or you get to that part of the book where you can see the entire hideous plot behind what is happening or otherwise have a startling revelation? That's what I'm talking about, I also get it whenever I do something that I consider a great accomplishment. Well you get those pretty frequently with yohimbe (and without as many sides with yohimbine). I was watching music videos for lack of computer, and it was like the second I thought of the name of the song I was watching I'd get a spine chill type feeling, and then if I agreed with the lyrics or the lyrics were powerful, I'd get another, oftentimes fairly long lasting. I can't imagine doing something truly accomplishing on yohimbe, I think your spine would just freeze (sic). I any case this is yohimbe, with all its other alkaloids. From a few surveys we did over on a bodybuilding forum I used to go to, women seemed better able to tolerate yohimbe, but I still wouldn't bother with it long term if I was a woman. I can't wait to try the real thing now that I've done the following research.
On the downside, the cardiovascular effects were annoying, I calmed them and myself down with a ghb precursor and then everything was fairly pleasant.
Now onto the research I did last night.
Yohimbine also agonizes the 5-HT1A receptors. This is similar to what buspar does, and in addition, yohimbines effect at the 5-HT1a receptor has been shown to reduce pain in rats. In fact, yohimbines pharmacology could most closely be connected with Remeron (both an alpha-2 antagonist and a 5-HT1A agonist), the main difference being that remeron doesn't cause norepinepherine release (as far as I know), and instead, makes one drowsy (because it also acts as an antihistamine (like benadryl)).
Yohimbine tends to increase dopamine (that's usually a plus in my book), though this may only be at high doses, and decrease serotonin turnover rates (like a weak SSRI?)
In high doses in rats, it decreases exploratory behavior (perhaps too much norepinephrine leading to anxiety).
It increases salivation. There has never once been a time while taking yohimbine that I even had close to a dry mouth, and this effect is clinicallly documented.
Yohimbine can increase startlability (likely due to norepinephrine release).
Yohimbine does not affect REM sleep. This is a big plus compared to many stimulants and depressants which do (caffeine, clonodine, benzo's I believe, ghb, amphetamines?) Interference of REM sleep tends to reduce LTP (long term potentiation of memories or learned things).Well I think I've beat this horse to death enough to call that the end of the post...
JGalt
This is the end of the thread.
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