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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by JohnL on September 6, 2001, at 5:13:51
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by adamie on September 5, 2001, at 23:05:02
Quite dangerous? NOT. People who order their own meds are people who are well versed in the game of titration, contraindications, side effects, etc. Very well researched and well experienced individuals. They are so careful, in fact, that they can get away with odd things like combining Moclobemide with Bromocriptine. :-)
There are risks and benefits in everything we do. Quite frankly, we are at greater risk getting in our car each day than we are ordering our own meds from overseas. But we get in our cars without even a blip of fear. People who are brave enough to order their own meds have done careful measuring of the risks and benefits. I cannot recall a single case that ended in trouble. On the contrary, the number of cases that ended in trouble under a doctor's direct supervision are too numerous to count.
I would feel differently if a bunch of newcomers were out ordering their own meds. But that just doesn't happen. For those patients who have been disappointed by the 'system', I am happy they have an alternative. And up to this point, that alternative has been full of success stories and completely absent of any disasters. The potential benefits, in other words, far outweigh the potential risks.
John
Posted by Phil on September 6, 2001, at 6:54:27
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by JohnL on September 6, 2001, at 5:13:51
If you order meds from overseas, as I foolishly did with Reboxetine(I believed the hype), you should let your doctor know what's going on and let them make the call.
I didn't take the Reboxetine until my pdoc was involved and I still took a 'tiny' dose.
I stopped it after 2 days because I felt like my heart was going to jump out of my chest.
To self-evaluate your own mental condition may just mean you have an idiot for a psychiatrist.
Sometimes, when I 'think' I'm doing either bad or good, I would like to have an educated opinion from a good pdoc. We then can work together.
Somewhere down the road, if it hasn't happened already, someone's going to push the envelope because of misinterpreting scientific info.
I've learned a lot at babble but I've also learned a lot from ER. I doubt that I will do my own bypass if ever needed.Phil
Posted by akc on September 6, 2001, at 8:01:55
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by Phil on September 6, 2001, at 6:54:27
I'm pretty educated (three degrees and counting) -- think I'm pretty smart. But I am still probably in that category of the majority of those who come across this board -- I would be foolish to self-medicate. I just have not studied this stuff enough to have the basis to make those decisions for myself.
Yet, I am sure there have been times, and may yet be times in the future that I am in enough emotional pain that I could be tempted by the information set forth here to try it -- wanting a quick fix -- thinking that my pdoc isn't helping me, isn't available enough, is ignoring me. There is a lot of information on this board -- a lot of good information. But it needs to be filtered in most cases. If everyone is honest, then you will realize that there are few people on this board who truly have the knowledge to handle self-medicating.
akc
Posted by ChrisK on September 6, 2001, at 8:41:43
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by JohnL on September 6, 2001, at 5:13:51
John,
I usually agree with a lot of things that you say but I definitely think you and Sal are wrong here. Self prescribing can be very dangerous and I don't agree with your statement that on the whole this group is well educated in meds before ordering them. People are trying the hit and miss approach to meds and could end up with some bad reactions.
I think that it is wrong to encourage self medication. Everyone should go through their doctor before ordering anything from overseas.
Chris
Posted by Cam W. on September 6, 2001, at 9:11:55
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by JohnL on September 6, 2001, at 5:13:51
John - We've been through this before, so I am not going to bother with the objectivity argument.
Do you think that Sal is "well versed in the game of titration, contraindications, side effects, etc."? Would you want to accept the liability for any result of the information he offers?
Just curious. - Cam
Posted by sl on September 6, 2001, at 9:28:16
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous! » JohnL, posted by Cam W. on September 6, 2001, at 9:11:55
Actually, yes. I do think Sal is well-versed in the game. But I would not call that post "encouraging". It was strictly a piece of information that one would eventually stumble over if researching on the web. You'll notice he says NOT A WORD.
I sincerely believe he only posted it cuz he was tired of a lot of us asking him about the overseas med option and thought he'd kill a dozen birds with one post.
I will agree that he gets a little over-eager sometimes when _suggesting_ changes to one's meds, but I chalk it up to his own frustration with meds that don't work and his desire to help us not go thru the same thing.Some of us ARE frustrated with the system. I personally find it very comforting to know that if the "system" falls thru for me, I can order my own meds, the same ones I've been on for years.
Ohyes, and I'd like to mention that anyone who does NOT know that info on the web could be 100% bullsh*t shouldn't be allowed a computer.
sl
> John - We've been through this before, so I am not going to bother with the objectivity argument.
>
> Do you think that Sal is "well versed in the game of titration, contraindications, side effects, etc."? Would you want to accept the liability for any result of the information he offers?
>
> Just curious. - Cam
Posted by Kristi on September 6, 2001, at 9:32:53
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by JohnL on September 6, 2001, at 5:13:51
I happen to agree on this one. Sal's trying to help thru experience. It's peoples own itelligence ultimately! Maybe we should leave it be. Cam, I don't understand why you even read his posts if it bothers you so much!!! He's given me some wonderful advice before that's worked great, that my doctors seemed to have over looked. Give him a break here and your right... let the buyer beware. Obsession is not good kiddo.
> Quite dangerous? NOT. People who order their own meds are people who are well versed in the game of titration, contraindications, side effects, etc. Very well researched and well experienced individuals. They are so careful, in fact, that they can get away with odd things like combining Moclobemide with Bromocriptine. :-)
>
> There are risks and benefits in everything we do. Quite frankly, we are at greater risk getting in our car each day than we are ordering our own meds from overseas. But we get in our cars without even a blip of fear. People who are brave enough to order their own meds have done careful measuring of the risks and benefits. I cannot recall a single case that ended in trouble. On the contrary, the number of cases that ended in trouble under a doctor's direct supervision are too numerous to count.
>
> I would feel differently if a bunch of newcomers were out ordering their own meds. But that just doesn't happen. For those patients who have been disappointed by the 'system', I am happy they have an alternative. And up to this point, that alternative has been full of success stories and completely absent of any disasters. The potential benefits, in other words, far outweigh the potential risks.
>
> John
Posted by shelliR on September 6, 2001, at 11:06:21
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by sl on September 6, 2001, at 9:28:16
These are my thoughts on the subject after participating on PB for a little over a year.I don't think either Sal or John L. should encourage people to order overseas. I think this post of Sal's was fine because it gave information without direct encouragement. ALL information provided by Sal, JohnL. or anyone, I can only see as helpful, provided it is offered as information.
I've read posts from both these guys, saying, "you should try..." and I read this as is an encouragement--saying forget about what your pdoc says, this is okay to do. I have read posts touting adrafinil, without saying that one should be monitored for possible liver problems, as an example.
I would rather see them encourage people to bring the information they are providing to their pdoc. If their pdoc won't offer support ordering from overseas, then it will be their decision whether to bypass pdoc, find another pdoc, etc.
I am actually less concerned about self-medicating within your own country, because at least you can utilize the pharmacist to help advise on possible problems/interactions.
Almost a year ago, against my pdoc's wishes, I combined nardil with adrafinil. There was someone on the board doing that combination with no hypertensive problems. I did have a hypertensive reaction and although it was not a very serious one, it could have been. If I had had a stroke and died, nobody on the board would have known why I disappeared. I don't blame anyone but myself for putting myself in a dangerous position. The babblers I was learning from on the board, never said you SHOULD do this.
Shelli
Posted by Simcha on September 6, 2001, at 11:20:42
In reply to Re: self-medicating, posted by shelliR on September 6, 2001, at 11:06:21
There is much that I disagree with that Sal posts on this board.
I will say this... I am 100% Sal when he posts informational posts on where to get things you might not be able to get here. It is just information. What we choose to do with the information is our own responsibility.
I'm so tired of our litigious society. I think that we have become a nation of victims. "Oh, McDonalds didn't warn me that the coffee was going to be hot. I burned myself. It must be McDonalds fault. Give me millions of dollars."
Puhleeeeeze!!!!
Anyone with half a brain knows that coffee is hot and it may burn you.
Also anyone who reads anything anywhere needs to remember that not everything that is written is true. Just because you see something in print does not make it true. My father is an English professor so maybe I learned this earlier than most.
It's about common sense and using one's judgement. When I read Sal's posts, or anyone else's posts for that matter, I read with caution checking resources that I know exist. Then I make an informed decision on what I want to do. Then I take action. If the action harms me, then I am to blame. I made the choice. No one put a gun to my head. I took a risk.
I think that it is time that this society grows up and learns that it is each individual's responsibility to take care of himself/herself.
>
> These are my thoughts on the subject after participating on PB for a little over a year.
>
> I don't think either Sal or John L. should encourage people to order overseas. I think this post of Sal's was fine because it gave information without direct encouragement. ALL information provided by Sal, JohnL. or anyone, I can only see as helpful, provided it is offered as information.
>
> I've read posts from both these guys, saying, "you should try..." and I read this as is an encouragement--saying forget about what your pdoc says, this is okay to do. I have read posts touting adrafinil, without saying that one should be monitored for possible liver problems, as an example.
>
> I would rather see them encourage people to bring the information they are providing to their pdoc. If their pdoc won't offer support ordering from overseas, then it will be their decision whether to bypass pdoc, find another pdoc, etc.
>
> I am actually less concerned about self-medicating within your own country, because at least you can utilize the pharmacist to help advise on possible problems/interactions.
>
> Almost a year ago, against my pdoc's wishes, I combined nardil with adrafinil. There was someone on the board doing that combination with no hypertensive problems. I did have a hypertensive reaction and although it was not a very serious one, it could have been. If I had had a stroke and died, nobody on the board would have known why I disappeared. I don't blame anyone but myself for putting myself in a dangerous position. The babblers I was learning from on the board, never said you SHOULD do this.
>
>
> Shelli
Posted by kid47 on September 6, 2001, at 11:56:33
In reply to Quite Dangerous!, posted by Sunnely on September 5, 2001, at 22:02:29
Don't shoot the messenger!! I take everything I read just about anywhere with a grain of salt. I also have learned things here that I have suggested to my doctor & actually enlightened him-the "trained proffessional." I think more & more we must be our own advocates especially when it comes to mental health. Although Sal is sometimes overzealous I believe alot of his info is valuable. If you have a beef go after these pharmicies that will sell rx drugs without a script. The info Sal offered is available on the web. He just saved us some time & trouble in finding it. My only concern would be some air-head kid ordering this stuff for "recreational use". (They are crushing & snorting Wellbutrin now. Go figure.) But they can buy potentially dangerous drugs on just about any given street corner. Hopefully if you have brains enough to get on line, you certainly are smart enough to use the information here wisely. All of course IMHO
kid> Sal, I know you meant well. However, IMHO, I believe your action may inadvertently cause harm to some people.
>
> Psychotropics are powerful meds that require psych/medical evaluation, diagnostic work up and monitoring by a physician (e.g., psychiatrist) or trained prescribers, such as a pharmacist or psych nurse prescriber, before an individual is prescribed one.
>
> BTW, did you happen to read the online drugstore's big DISCLAIMER which says "#1 Drugstore Online assumes NO LIABILITIES for the use of any products supplied. It lies on the purchaser to use them under the guidance of a physician."
>
> "First, do know harm. Then, do no harm."
Posted by paxvox on September 6, 2001, at 12:49:39
In reply to Re: For Sunnely Only!! » Sunnely, posted by Cam W. on September 6, 2001, at 1:02:13
Listen to the music here, people. Sure, you can order and get FDA controlled substances from abroad,only it's illegal w/o a prescription. Check out what the US Customs department says about the illegal importation of controlled substances. http://www.uscustoms.gov You will find the penalties can be rather stiff. The issue is not necessarily CAN you get what meds, but WHY w/o medical supervision? As I have posted before, if you are going to self-medicate, go down to the street corner for your shopping. Either way, you are playing with fire.
PAX
Posted by paxvox on September 6, 2001, at 12:57:26
In reply to Re: For ALL! » Cam W., posted by paxvox on September 6, 2001, at 12:49:39
sorry, wrong url for customs try:
http://www.customs.ustreas.gov
PAX
Posted by Lini on September 6, 2001, at 13:01:16
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous! If you're an idiot., posted by kid47 on September 6, 2001, at 11:56:33
okay, I have to give my two cents. as a relative newbie here on the board, i am appreciative of ALL the information people choose to share, good bad, and indifferent - HOWEVER - no one here knows my medical history (race, gender, height, etc. for that matter!), so it would be pretty presumptuous to SUGGEST a med for me. In the same light, I would not be very smart to take anything anyone says here as gospel and make a health decision solely because Sal or Cam or anyone "said so." The point I think that people are missing though is that alot of people come to this board in a very difficult place emotionally, it goes without saying that as you try and navigate your way through ADs, there are going to be times when you feel pretty fragile - and may find yourself doing things or making decisions that you wouldn't make under "normal" circumstances. Out of respect for those situations, babblers really should qualify the information that they offer as simply their experience, understanding, or opinion because that really is all that it is. And, always suggest involving a doctor, because if shit goes wrong and heaven forbid there is a serious emergency, it will be a doctor you turn to for help, not your computer.
Besides, why do you think Dr. Bob doesn't get on here and tell everyone what to take!
Posted by SalArmy4me on September 6, 2001, at 13:04:53
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous! If you're an idiot., posted by kid47 on September 6, 2001, at 11:56:33
Kids who wanna experiment with psychotropic drugs for recreational use _won't_ put up with the side-effects for more than a day or two. They just waste their money.
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 6, 2001, at 13:29:01
In reply to Re: For Sunnely Only!! » Sunnely, posted by Cam W. on September 6, 2001, at 1:02:13
yet again... Why do i feel that i am banging my head against a brick wall.
Self medication can kill. Simple. Meds must always be taken when under the care of a proffesional.
Sal I know you will not listen to me but not everyone on here is able to make safe decisions about their mediaction. As stated before you are waving in my face a site where i could buy Valium, but would you then help me kick the addiction to these???
Please
Nikki
Posted by SalArmy4me on September 6, 2001, at 13:52:09
In reply to Re: For Sunnely Only!!, posted by NikkiT2 on September 6, 2001, at 13:29:01
I never showed anyone where to get a controlled substance.
Posted by FluteTheatrix on September 6, 2001, at 14:06:43
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous!, posted by Phil on September 6, 2001, at 6:54:27
Everybody has a good point in here.... but SalArmy4me was simply trying to help people like me. I don't have insurance.... I don't have a doctor, and I am in desperate need of help. We know what med's we can tolerate and doctor's don't always favor your choice and don't prescribe you the ONE med that works for you becasue of it's addicting factors...etc. BLAH What I am saying is that it is GREAT to know where to order med's without a prescription incase of an emergency =)
Posted by sl on September 6, 2001, at 15:04:57
In reply to Re: For ALL! » Cam W., posted by paxvox on September 6, 2001, at 12:49:39
>but WHY w/o medical supervision? As I have posted before, if you are going to self-medicate, go down to the street corner for your shopping. Either way, you are playing with fire.
You asked it, you don't seem to know the answer, so I figured I might as well answer you.
BECAUSE some of us have problems finding a decent sensible doctor who's willing to work with us. Some of us know what we need but can't afford to pay for the meds AND for the doctor to authorize them. Sometimes we KNOW what'll work from past experience but our current care-provider doesn't believe us or doesn't trust us to care for ourselves. (Funny, they trust us to feed and clothe and clean ourselves, but not to care for our own minds.)
And did you know there're areas in the good-ole US of A that have literally NO psychiatrists or doctors offering psychiatric services? I was helping with the survey done by the National Association of Social Workers. There were no psychiatrists listed by the AMA in a given area so we were calling all the MDs to ask if they provided these services. The answer was an unequivocable NO.
So you see, there's no Black'n'white issue here.
(if one exists anywhere, at all!)
Sometimes, certain situations require taking matters into your own hands or suffering for the lack. Sure, it'd be wonderful if it wasn't ever necessary and everyone got the care and respect they need, but this isn't a perfect world.
sl
Posted by stjames on September 6, 2001, at 15:34:30
In reply to Re: For ALL!, posted by sl on September 6, 2001, at 15:04:57
I travel 2 hrs to see the doc, some travel out of state. If I can, you can.
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2001, at 15:50:23
In reply to Re: Quite Dangerous! If you're an idiot., posted by kid47 on September 6, 2001, at 11:56:33
> Everybody has a good point in here....
It's true.
I guess it is a fine line to walk. With 20/20 hindsight, I guess fewer people would have been alarmed had Sal simply posted the URLs for the home pages of the sites themselves instead of for each specific drug.
I don't think too many people appreciate the scope and depth of a doctor's training and knowledge. It gives him the ability to recognize or anticipate seemingly unrelated events and deduce their causes, effects, associations, and remedies.
On a similar note, we don't emerge from the womb knowing which cytochrome P450 enzyme might be responsible for changing the pharmacokinetics of Lamictal once Depakote is added to it. How many of us are aware that a potentially fatal reaction known as serotonin syndrome can emerge when lithium is added to Prozac? I am - and I'm not a doctor. Far from it.
So, who is willing to take the responsibility for a death? How much do we really know about the exotic drug combinations that are sometimes suggested - especially in light of the comments frequently made about how little we know about the long-term effects of these drugs when they are taken alone? Are there sufficient numbers of people and years of experience to be confident of their safety for all individuals - especially when foreign drugs are involved? I don't know. I do know that sometimes taking risks is justified.
Of course, there is an abundance of accurate information and intelligent judgments that are probably uncommon to find on the Internet. At least now I know not to drink grapefruit juice when taking certain drugs.
Whenever I post something, I try to take into consideration that there is probably a sizable percentage, perhaps a majority, of people who know very little when they first arrive at PB and begin posting. This is indeed evidenced by the number of "beginner's" questions that appear regularly. How about the "lurkers"? How many of these people are just beginning to research their illnesses and assume that PB is a source of established medical knowledge and advice. Look at the big words some of us use. It is very understandable how this mistake can be made. Not everyone carries a salt-shaker around with them.
Anyway, these are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.
(I don't think I have ever read the full text of the disclaimer at the top of the page. Perhaps I'm unique in this regard).
- Just Another Idiot
Posted by sl on September 6, 2001, at 19:15:38
In reply to Re: For ALL!, posted by stjames on September 6, 2001, at 15:34:30
Not necessarily true.
I don't drive, and I never have the money to pay the doc, let alone to travel EXTRA to see a doc.
Ohyeah, and if I ditch class to travel, I could end up flunking classes and NEVER having money!!sl
> I travel 2 hrs to see the doc, some travel out of state. If I can, you can.
Posted by Storm on September 6, 2001, at 19:32:20
In reply to Re: For ALL!, posted by sl on September 6, 2001, at 19:15:38
what sal posted can help you or it can hurt you. sal intended it to be a great help to some, which it will. you have to be in an unfortunate or desperate situation to understand how precious of a help it can be. and thank God if you aren't. it is only knowledge; what matters is how you chose to use it. I honestly think that there most of us in this world are smart and will use the information to our benefit. it helps more than it hurts if we chose to let it. the result is up to each one of us; we were given the power by God to chose, to make good knowledgable use of it. Christy
> Not necessarily true.
> I don't drive, and I never have the money to pay the doc, let alone to travel EXTRA to see a doc.
> Ohyeah, and if I ditch class to travel, I could end up flunking classes and NEVER having money!!
>
> sl
>
> > I travel 2 hrs to see the doc, some travel out of state. If I can, you can.
Posted by Mair on September 6, 2001, at 22:14:11
In reply to Re: For ALL!, posted by Storm on September 6, 2001, at 19:32:20
>When i first came on this site, I was very impressed by how careful everyone was to stress that their particular experience with a drug could not be generalized. This was important for me to learn because, like many other newbies, I was a drug illiterate (and still am). It's easy to excuse Sal's posts since he merely gives people references to other sites where they can get help self-medicating. Would you all feel the same way if he posted information about sites where you could obtain firearms, or information about suicide methods? To the uninitiated, there might not be a real difference. It's a cop out to say that it's up to us to use the information wisely. That may be, but in many if not most cases, it surely will not be used wisely because it is afterall, only information and not knowledge, and I think it's foolish to assume everyone knows or appreciates the difference.
Mair
Posted by paxvox on September 7, 2001, at 7:59:14
In reply to Re: For Sunnely Only!! » NikkiT2, posted by SalArmy4me on September 6, 2001, at 13:52:09
> I never showed anyone where to get a controlled substance.
Sorry, Sal, but you did post a link to a Thai company that DOES sell controlled substances, since Ativan (lorazepam) is C-IV on FDA list.
PAX
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2001, at 10:08:58
In reply to Re: For Sunnely Only!! » Sunnely, posted by Cam W. on September 6, 2001, at 1:02:13
> Don't even bother to try to use reason, on this subject...
I understand where you're coming from, but please respect the views of others -- and please don't put them down -- even if you think they're wrong. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they might be deleted.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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