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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by S.D. on July 22, 2000, at 20:43:08
Is there a non-Rx substance similar to Adderall or Dexedrine, or that would predict efficacy of these? Is ephedrine or ma huang safe or effective to use chronically as a stimulant? Especially to get my @ss out of bed initially. It has a short dosing schedule so I think it makes me crash like Ritalin a bit if I don't keep taking some during the day (or, eventually, even if I do). Basically I've got what KarenB has described when it comes to fatigue and anergia (low energy). I should have stuck it out with my ADD doc back in '97, but I quit. Current doc isn't keen on stims.
I guess Adderall are amphetamine salts and dexedrine is dextroamphetimine - is this same/similar to "speed", methamphetamine or "chrystal meth" street drugs? If these are the "Non-Rx" alternatives, I'll have to take a pass ;-). (But I could probably get them pretty easily in my general area I'm sorry to say).
peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by AndrewB on July 23, 2000, at 20:41:31
In reply to nonRx Adderall alternative? ephedrin/MaHuang safe?, posted by S.D. on July 22, 2000, at 20:43:08
S.D.,Since your doctor is not to keen on stimulants, how does he suggest that you treat your ADD without hyperactivity. Stimulants are the only generally used medicine for ADD. Can you switch doctors.
That being said, Wellbutrin has some efficacy for ADD and anergic states. Both reboxetine and adrafinil are available without Rxs. An Rx for Provigil is another option. I'm not ready to call my trial complete yet, but my impression is that selegiline when combined with low dose amisulpride enhances vigor, cognition, and motivation without increased anxiety. This reminds me of posters which have noted that their stimulants needed to be combined with a low dose neuroleptic to a have a good effect. Amiuslpride is a neuroleptic. Selegiline also can be obtained without an Rx.
Sorry, Ephedra and ma huang do not predict a good response to stims. These drugs are not acceptable for long term use. Tolerance builds for them and I believe a crash results after extended use.
AndrewB
Posted by S.D. on July 23, 2000, at 23:41:56
In reply to Re: nonRx Adderall alternative? ephedrin/MaHuang safe?, posted by AndrewB on July 23, 2000, at 20:41:31
> Since your doctor is not to keen on stimulants, how does he suggest that you treat your ADD without hyperactivity. Stimulants are the only generally used medicine for ADD. Can you switch doctors.
>
> That being said, Wellbutrin has some efficacy for ADD and anergic states. Both reboxetine and adrafinil are available without Rxs. An Rx for Provigil is another option
-----
My ADD diagnosis was from a previous doc, and was based only on personal interview + long survey of historical symptoms and traits + lab test to rule out heavy metals poisoning. I don't think my current doc thinks I have ADD but I have been/will be talking that angle with him more, now that my social anxiety has been addressed pharmacologically. And he knows I consider my fatigue/anergia/lack-of-motivation/possible anhedonia is my primary complaint currently. Basically, my symptoms aren't inconsistant with depr. in partial remission or dysthymia or atypical depr. So I don't blame him esp. since I don't think I've stressed to him yet that I've basically felt this way all my life (i.e. to distinguish it from depression which may have officially kicked off in adolescence.)Given the foregoing, he's been gravitating toward more stimulating type antidepressants in his suggestions to me. Specifically I may try Wellbutrin, especially if particular noticeable symptoms of depression return. Until then, I've got amisulpride underway, sulpiride as an alternative, and adrafinil on-the-way.
Bottom line, I don't much care what label someone wants to put on me except to the extent it helps or hinders my efforts at getting well.
When you put the question to him straight my doc will admit that since the physical mechanisms aren't well understood, and positive responses occassionally happen to "a non-typical med for that diagnosis" that, diagnoses and labels are fake enough to be harmful if you let yourself be constrained too much by them.peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by michael on July 24, 2000, at 11:41:58
In reply to nonRx Adderall alternative? ephedrin/MaHuang safe?, posted by S.D. on July 22, 2000, at 20:43:08
I haven't tried any of the Rx items you mentioned, but I believe ephedrine is considered a stimulant....
I've used ephedrine in the past, and found it very helpful for energy/concentration/motivation - being productive & functional, generally. From what I understand, however, it is not a good long-term option. If I understand correctly, what ephedrine does is release stored norepinephrine, and eventually the stores are depleted.... That's probably a bit over-simplified... can anyone else elaborate?
As for indicating response... I recently tried reboxetine (very short trial), and just wanted to mention that I found it similar to the way ephedrine felt. I found ephedrine to be a bit "edgier", but also more energizing. I quit rebox because I didn't like it. For me, it had a bit of a fluish/hangover feeling, more than the "edgy"/energizing feel I got from the ephedrine. However, as I said, my rebox trial was very short - the fluish thing may have gone away, and it also may have become more energizing with time...
One other note - both noticably/significantly increased a desire for nicotine/cigarettes (a friend has told me the he encounters the same increased craving for chewing tabacco from ephedrine), obviously not a good thing.
As for non-Rx option (haven't tried any Rx stims), I'm with JohnL., and have gone back to adrafinil. Don't really notice any "stimulant" effect or feelilng - just lack of fatigue/anergia. It's the best non-Rx option I've found so far for that. (effects like ephedrine, but you don't "feel" or notice it)
> Is there a non-Rx substance similar to Adderall or Dexedrine, or that would predict efficacy of these? Is ephedrine or ma huang safe or effective to use chronically as a stimulant? Especially to get my @ss out of bed initially. It has a short dosing schedule so I think it makes me crash like Ritalin a bit if I don't keep taking some during the day (or, eventually, even if I do). Basically I've got what KarenB has described when it comes to fatigue and anergia (low energy). I should have stuck it out with my ADD doc back in '97, but I quit. Current doc isn't keen on stims.
>
> I guess Adderall are amphetamine salts and dexedrine is dextroamphetimine - is this same/similar to "speed", methamphetamine or "chrystal meth" street drugs? If these are the "Non-Rx" alternatives, I'll have to take a pass ;-). (But I could probably get them pretty easily in my general area I'm sorry to say).
>
> peace and health,
>
> S.D.
Posted by FlakE2 on July 25, 2000, at 11:32:35
In reply to nonRx Adderall alternative? ephedrin/MaHuang safe?, posted by S.D. on July 22, 2000, at 20:43:08
Street Methamphetamine is made using iodine and Phosporus. It is invariably contaminated.
Ephedrine has almost no dopaminergic effect, apparently. That is why it doesn't help much for ADD and why you can still buy it over the counter. If it really worked, it would be abuseable for somebody. Your big brother wouldn't allow that.
I guess Adderall are amphetamine salts and dexedrine is dextroamphetimine - is this same/similar to "speed", methamphetamine or "chrystal meth" street drugs? If these are the "Non-Rx" alternatives, I'll have to take a pass ;-). (But I could probably get them pretty easily in my general area I'm sorry to say).
>
Posted by KarenB on July 26, 2000, at 16:16:39
In reply to Re: nonRx Adderall alternative? ephedrin/MaHuang safe?, posted by michael on July 24, 2000, at 11:41:58
S.D.,
Greetings from one very active slug to another;^)
You may want to try Ginkgo Biloba, 40mg 3x a day, the first dose taken with straight, very strong ginseng tea, BEFORE getting out of bed. Just put it beside your bed before retiring and set the alarm 45 min. early. Then, see if you feel a little bit more like getting up and being alive.
My mom is med-free and swears by the Ginkgo. She's 70 and still (very successfully)selling real estate. I'm not sure she has suffered fatigue to the extent I do but I know she does have occasional physiological/mental depression wherein fatigue plays a major role.
Have you been to www.chadd.org, followed the links and taken some of the tests/surveys they have for ADD? If you are sure you are ADD and your doctor is "anti stims," you may want to look for a new doctor. Just a thought.
10mg 2x a day Adderall plus 50mg 2x a day Amisulpride and 300mg 1x a day Adrafinil is working very well for me, BTW.
Karen
Posted by J. R. on July 27, 2000, at 9:18:27
In reply to Re: nonRx stim alternative?}}S.D. , posted by KarenB on July 26, 2000, at 16:16:39
> S.D.,
>
> Greetings from one very active slug to another;^)
>
> You may want to try Ginkgo Biloba, 40mg 3x a day, the first dose taken with straight, very strong ginseng tea, BEFORE getting out of bed. Just put it beside your bed before retiring and set the alarm 45 min. early. Then, see if you feel a little bit more like getting up and being alive.
>
> My mom is med-free and swears by the Ginkgo. She's 70 and still (very successfully)selling real estate. I'm not sure she has suffered fatigue to the extent I do but I know she does have occasional physiological/mental depression wherein fatigue plays a major role.
>
> Have you been to www.chadd.org, followed the links and taken some of the tests/surveys they have for ADD? If you are sure you are ADD and your doctor is "anti stims," you may want to look for a new doctor. Just a thought.
>
> 10mg 2x a day Adderall plus 50mg 2x a day Amisulpride and 300mg 1x a day Adrafinil is working very well for me, BTW.
>
> KarenHi Karen,
I went to CHADD, but couldn't find the tests you
mentioned. Can you give me a URL?Thanks,
J.
This is the end of the thread.
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