![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on January 27, 2004, at 17:37:46
OK, I guess I'm starting to feel better -- finally. I thought, since we're pretty quiet around here, I'd tell you all about it. You all know how wordy I can get, so I'm imagining you all groaning, "oh, no! She really will tell *all* about it! The horror! The horror!" (<<joke) (I hope)
Anyway, all of a sudden I feel as if I'm making progress with therapy! Yippee! Just yesterday, instead of just sitting there crying, I suddenly started the real, gulping sobs -- and talking about something that's been festering for a long time without me knowing about it. (That's just the background. This is where it starts to matter.) At the very end of the session, I said something, just offhand, that started resonating. I mean just banging away like a gong in my chest.
So, what did I do? Did I sit on my heinie and worry and chew at it? Well, yeah, I did, but I also called and left a message for my therapist, telling her something we'd touched on in the session was a bigger deal than I thought, and if she had a space, could she see me sooner? (Insert here: [mental image of Racer patting herself on the back] [secondary image of Racer pulling a muscle doing it so vigorously.]
So, we talked about it in an extra session, and I feel better. Here's the topic for discussion: which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did I make that call because I was feeling better? Or do I feel better because I made that call? Anyone else have any analogous experiences to talk about?
By the way, Ladies and Gents, you're a great audience. It's great to be back!
Posted by noa on January 27, 2004, at 18:52:36
In reply to Racer Report: re Being Proactive, posted by Racer on January 27, 2004, at 17:37:46
Way to go, Racer!
Chicken or Egg? Who knows. Both. The whole great than the sum of the parts and all that, I guess. Just enjoy that you had the moment and you siezed it well!
Now we have you in writing. Hopefully, you will never have any setbacks or relapses ever ever again, but just in case you ever have a wee bit of discouragement in the healing process, we can send you reminders of the real you--the "I'm back" you--proof of hope and progress.
BTW--I loved the description (on admin) of how you worked with little kids and they knew who was in charge and respected you for it! If I ever have kids, I'd send 'em to you to learn how to ride, that's for sure. I am sure you are both strong and gentle, and that is why you get the respect from both the horses and the kids (and ultimately from the parents who wonder at your ability to get the kids to listen).
I love having you back.. you are very smart and funny and supportive.
Posted by Racer on January 27, 2004, at 19:43:31
In reply to Re: Racer Report: re Being Proactive » Racer, posted by noa on January 27, 2004, at 18:52:36
Thanks, sweetie, for the encouragement and support. Send your future kids to me for riding lessons, especially the girls, and they'll come back the better for it. (Wow, I guess I am feeling better, since I managed to say I was good at something.) I see it in my cousin's kids, too. At Christmas, my cousin or his wife would say "no" to their 3 year old, and he'd ignore them. It was hard to hold myself back, but I did. The proper response to "no" is for the kid to stop whatever he's doing, right? Well, there's a proper response for the adult, too: if the kid ignores you, you Make It So. Usually, adults are bigger than toddlers, so the adult can physically remove the child from the problem. What happens to the kid's psyche when this sort of thing happens, you ask? In Racer's School of Psycho-Theories, the kid learns to feel secure, because he learns that there are boundaries, and someone will ensure that he stays inside them. These days, though, too many parents think in terms of 'teaching children to make their own decisions' -- in other words, treating children as if they were nothing more than short adults. That's denying children their true identity of being immature, potential adults. Much better to be honest with everyone involved and let the kids know that there's more to maturity than height.
There, nice little rant, just for you. If you give me a few minutes to prepare, I can give you a further analysis of how that thought process relates to adults who were given too much autonomy as children...
Seriously, thanks for your post. It means a lot to me when someone gives me a specific example when making complimentary comments about me. It means that you've not only decided you like me enough, or value me enough, to want to make me feel good, feel worthy, but that you also respect me enough to take the trouble of finding something specific to compliment me on. That's a thread I'm still teasing out today, because my therapist said something that brought it up. I was telling her about an abusive doctor I was stuck with a few years ago -- when I first came to these boards, so you might remember, but machts nichts -- and she gave me some reassurance. She didn't say, "Oh, don't be silly, of course we don't think you're hopeless." She said, "If we thought you were hopeless, you'd only be seen every eight weeks for therapy. The fact that you have a weekly therapy appointment, and that the doctor is continuing to try new drugs in order to find the right combination for you, proves that we think there's hope for you." Now I'm stretching at that thought, and trying to straighten it out in my mind, see how it fits, if it keeps my mind warm, etc. You've just managed to improve my condition even more by reinforcing the thought that there are tangible benefits to my being in the world.
Thank you. I hope I help you as much as you help me.
Posted by judy1 on January 28, 2004, at 10:53:32
In reply to Re: Racer Report: re Being Proactive » noa, posted by Racer on January 27, 2004, at 19:43:31
Hi,
I actually went to admin (with great trepidation- but the waters were calm, thank goodness) when I read noa's post. I really liked your posts also, about reflecting before writing- something we learn after a lot of experience, I think (I've certainly been guilty in the past about responding w/o thought of consequences). My favorite post was by Mark H a few? years back- he wrote about evolving here and taking other's feelings in account before posting. I wish I could find it, he was/is a very gifted writer.
about horses, I think (lord knows since my memory is mush from meds) we exchanged posts about riding, etc. I used to help disabled kids with riding (pre- my little girl's birth) and hope to get back to it, horses bring such joy to kids- especially girls. I have a very 'hot' arabian mare that I don't ride enough (and feel guilty), but just cleaning manure can be the most peaceful thing to me. anyway, just wanted to second noa's post.
take care, judy
Posted by Racer on January 28, 2004, at 18:39:01
In reply to Re: Racer Report: re Being Proactive » Racer, posted by judy1 on January 28, 2004, at 10:53:32
I read the post and agree that it was on point. We do evolve with experience. Uh-oh! I think that means we've got hope!! Whatever shall we do?
Funny you should mention disabled riding. I was thinking about a little girl with CP I had a few years ago. She was profoundly disabled, would never be able to walk, probably never talk. When she was riding with me -- you know, put her on the horse, ask her to try to push herself upright, ask her to pet the horse, walk the horse a little bit and do the exercises again -- she was only 3 or 4, so it was very difficult to know what was going on inside her. What made it so devastating, though, was that quite often when I spoke to her, her eyes made me believe that there was a very alert, very perceptive intelligence behind them. Her family was great -- older sister helping happily with her, loving mother who brought her along every time, etc. I do wonder about her sometimes, because she was one of My Little Girls -- you know how that it -- and wonder what her reality is. And I miss teaching riding, too.
Another thing that's been on my mind, that you'll probably "get" since you've probably watched student/teacher interactions in riding lessons, is that I'm not comfortable being vulnerable. As a teacher, whether riding or computers or taxes, my main "job" is to be the Final Authority. When something happens, I have to be there to calm nerves, comfort and reassure, and provide guidance. When you come right down to it, anyone with average intelligence and about a sixth grade education can probably learn to use Windows or a Mac in a couple of hours without any references at all. If they come to a class, they want reassurance more than they want information. In riding, probably only about 10% of any given lesson is devoted to teaching something new. The other 90% is providing feedback and reassurance while that 10% is becoming more familiar. Even if I don't know The Answer, part of my job is to convince my students that I know The Answers To Everything, that I am there to back them up if anything happens amiss.
Now, here I am, by personality and by experience inclined to take control of anything and everything around me, in a situation in which I am not in charge, I am not in control, I know none of the answers, and I have to place myself in the hands of someone whose expertise I have no way of judging. I can't, for example, ask the pdoc, "What was your midterm grade in organic chemistry?" and expect to learn from the answer whether or not he deserves my trust. I read warning labels, I read websites, I ask the questions I can think of, and yet I don't have the training to put it all together in such a way that I can assess his ability. There's always that little niggling doubt, that worry that my ignorance allows an obvious question to go unasked. Putting my trust in someone else this way requires a leap of faith that I have a very difficult time making. It's so hard to say, "Gee, Dr EyeCandy, I'm scared and vulnerable and worried that if I trust you, you won't protect me. You know, the way none of the other people who were supposed to protect me ever did. Can you promise me you'll do everything you can for me, for my own good?" OK, it's not hard to do, it's impossible, and if I did say it, and he agreed to it, I wouldn't believe him because it's an impossible promise to make. So, I'm stuck.
I think this is like priests who get Doubts. Or maybe atheists? Anyway, it's about having Faith. I lack faith, largely because I've been betrayed a few times, and so I am very leary of releasing control. Unfortunately, it's like playing the violin: if you're worried that it won't sound good, so you try to play quietly, it screeches. To get a decent sound out, you have to start out playing it as loud as you can. Or maybe learning to swim is a better analogy: you can't learn to swim without getting in the water. Since I don't have faith, I'm afraid to jump into the abyss, even if my rational mind tells me that there's a secure net three feet down.
Pretty good digressions, huh? An entire -- and rather lengthy -- post without really having any direction at all. All footnotes, no text. Just the way I like 'em!
(Whatthehell, I gotta laugh at me sometimes...)
Posted by judy1 on January 29, 2004, at 11:28:32
In reply to re Being Proactive » judy1, posted by Racer on January 28, 2004, at 18:39:01
honestly on the whole trust thing, I truly believe we have to give ourselves breaks. of course there's past experiences that taught us not to trust, but sometimes I don't think some therps are worthy of that trust. it's hard to distinguish how much is paranoia and how much is a highly developed (through necessity) sense that something is not quite right with that person. not that they will directly hurt us (although I've certainly been on that end) but through their lack of expertise make things worse. I don't think i can help you make the leap because i can't do it myself. what do your instincts tell you about the therp you're dealing with now?
take care, judy
Posted by Racer on January 29, 2004, at 13:24:52
In reply to Re: re Being Proactive » Racer, posted by judy1 on January 29, 2004, at 11:28:32
what do your instincts tell you about the therp you're dealing with now?
> take care, judySee, that's the problem: my instincts tell me both to trust, and not to trust. (Hey, I guess if I made sense, I wouldn't need the treatment...)
Anyway, about the therapist, this week has started me trusting her a lot more. Both because I accidentally opened up a little more than I expected, and because of her response when I called and asked for a second appointment this week. The first one was one of those things that always amaze me later. From reading my posts, you'd never guess that I can talk a lot, right? Or that, when I talk, I usually talk in terms of logic, and explain in great detail? Naw, you'd never figure that out... Well, I sat down and started talking. Turned out what I ended up talking about was my father -- and all of a sudden, great gulping sobs started. I don't think we figured anything out beyond the fact that my feelings went a lot deeper than I'd ever known, but just finding that out made me feel so much better.
Then, when I called to ask for more, she responded quickly, offered me a choice of appointments -- including one the same day -- and listened and helped get me through both telling her what happened and how the experience left me feeling. Just the fact that I feel so much better from those two sessions makes me trust her a lot more -- because she's proving herself worthy of trust -- and the bonus that she's also saying things that I can process in my logical mind and find valid enhances that trust.
And you know what? It actually feels good to be feeling that kernal of trust.
The pdoc is a different story. That one is a whole lot more complex, and I don't have any kind of a handle on it yet at all. (That's actually what the second session was about.) On the one hand, but on the other, and back to the first hand, except that the other. You know what I mean? Two other problems with the whole mess about him are right in front of me: my husband made plans that conflict with my next appointment, so I'm trying to change it, but I know that he and the therp consult about me, so I'm afraid that will look as if I'm trying to avoid facing him after what she might say; and he's very, very attractive. Imagine, if you will, all the doubts and concerns of a middle aged woman with severe depression and feelings of utter failure faced with a doctor who looks a lot younger than he must be (according to his grad date from med school) and who inspires a great deal of sexual desire. (I can't believe I just admitted that. Still, it's true, he's definitely drool-bait.)
The trust issue with the doctor, though, leads to a vicious circle. He's so likeable, I want to trust him, so I doubt my ability to discern trustworthiness, so I doubt his abilities. Then I berate myself for being so paranoid, and then I withdraw and grow more reticent in my appointments, giving him less chance of proving himself worthy of my trust. You see how my instinctive behaviors or attitudes are maladaptive, right? Hell, I see that they're maladaptive -- and if I could change them as easily as that, I wouldn't need treatment.
So, instincts, schminstincts -- someone get me a beer...
(And thanks for engaging in this dialogue with me. It feels good to be in communication with you.)
Posted by shar on January 29, 2004, at 22:31:15
In reply to Aye, there's the rub... » judy1, posted by Racer on January 29, 2004, at 13:24:52
I wonder what would happen if you told your pdoc about the trust carousel you're on, just said it like you said it here. He's probably noticed your different moods (openness, reticence, etc.) and you probably aren't the only client he has with trust issues (I think we all have them, to tell the truth).
Just realizing things can be a great help, as you said. So, maybe you don't have to say anything.
And, in terms of him thinking this or that because you want to change an appt., well, I doubt that he would disbelieve you if you said your spouse made plans for that day.
It sounds good to me that you're in this new phase of stretching and growth--which, my T often reminds me, can be good AND terrifying also.
I am doing some growth, and dissociating like crazy (heh--crazy...), I called my dog "Email" the other night. She came up for a pat, and I patted her and said "Hi, email." It sort of freaked me out that I could be so NOT in the present, but my T was pretty reassuring about it.
Oooh, this is turning into a Shar Rant.
S
Posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 15:51:09
In reply to Re: Aye, there's the rub... » Racer, posted by shar on January 29, 2004, at 22:31:15
Racer's Rants are what I write, you'll have to find your own trademark. How about Shar's Shockers? Shar's Surprises? Shar's Chidings? Shar's Spikes? Shar's Sharpness?
Sorry, got carried away there...
Pdoc gave me a lollipop, on accounta I was so brave. I did bring it up, and did talk about it, and maybe I feel better -- or maybe this trembling is just terror? Whatever it is, I do feel as if I've gotten over the hump. I was able to talk a bit more than I thought I could, and it wasn't quite as bad as I'd imagined.
Thanks, SharDear, for helping inspire courage in me. Now I'll fax some of the extra back to you, shall I?
Posted by shar on January 30, 2004, at 18:20:05
In reply to No, no, no » shar, posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 15:51:09
ok, how about SharDear's Diatribes?
Glad it went well, and nobody's head exploded.
Shar
Posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 19:21:37
In reply to Re: No, no, no » Racer, posted by shar on January 30, 2004, at 18:20:05
SharDear's Diatribes. I like it.
As for your dog Email, I asked my husband to get me a jug out of the bowl the other night -- when what I wanted was a fork out of the drawer. (In my defense, that sort of thing has gotten much better since the last change in meds...)
When I'm thinking about all of this, one of the things that helps me hang on is the analogy of muscles: muscles get stronger with proper exercise, because they are stressed just a little too much, then heal with stronger connections. That's why regular exercise is safer and more effective for building muscles and strength than the occasional blow out lifting session. Too much, too fast, too many causes more damage because the muscles are so overstressed they can't recover. So, in the same way, a little regular light stress can make us stronger, but sudden overwhelming stress *or* constant background stress makes us weaker. That's why we feel like overstretched elastic bands when we're depressed. (Sure, that's how you describe it -- you just don't remember right now... [insert image of me rolling my eyes at my silliness])
I look forward to the next installation of SharDear's Diatribes. Maybe we can publish a set of Racer's Rants and SharDear's Diatribes, and see who else offers up a title?
Posted by allisonm on January 30, 2004, at 20:38:52
In reply to I like it! » shar, posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 19:21:37
soliloquy: 1. an act or instance of talking to oneself. 2. lines in a drama in which a character reveals his or her thoughts to the audience, but not to the other characters, by speaking as if to himself or herself.
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 16:48:15
In reply to Re: Aye, there's the rub... » Racer, posted by shar on January 29, 2004, at 22:31:15
I like my pdoc, and I trust him but I don't trust him to be able to hear and respond to the same kinds of things or at the same level as my therapist. I see my pdoc as good at what he does, but kind of limited in other ways. He is my psychopharm expert, but doesn't seem to have that much to offer in terms of exploring my feelings and how my mind works, etc.
Posted by judy1 on January 31, 2004, at 18:27:38
In reply to Re: Aye, there's the rub..., posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 16:48:15
I think most people get their therapy form psychologists/MSWs and meds from their pdocs. My pdoc happens to give 1 hr. sessions (well 50 minutes :-) to address therapy and meds. I do have a therp also- she's more local and has a different approach than my pdoc. But with all the complex meds I'm on (or supposed to be on), it's really important that my pdoc does a lot more than a med consult. he's also the first one I call when I feel suicidal/in trouble, etc.- I guess I feel more trusting of him. how long do your sessions last with your pdoc?
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on January 31, 2004, at 18:37:56
In reply to Aye, there's the rub... » judy1, posted by Racer on January 29, 2004, at 13:24:52
It's great that you (and actually me too) recognize these maladaptive patterns we have with our respective pdocs. Do you think it's a gender issue? I actually feel closer to my male pdoc then female therp, even though she is incredibly helpful with her suggestions- especially how to deal with SI and dissociation. My pdoc isn't the hunk that yours sounds like (which is good, since I can get pretty agressive sexually when I'm manic, and if mine was that good looking it would be difficult to take no for an answer). But with all the issues I have with men, I think it will take a man to get me to a level of trust in a safe environment that hopefully I'll be able to use in the real world. It is a roller coaster though, isn't it? I'm really happy for you that you're making so much progress with your therp, that must feel wonderful.
take care, judy
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 19:04:18
In reply to pdocs and therps » noa, posted by judy1 on January 31, 2004, at 18:27:38
>how long do your sessions last with your pdoc?
Usually about 20-30 minutes, sometimes 15, sometimes 45. He's really bad at keeping time and he can get off track. He seems pretty ADHD! He likes to talk, and I enjoy talking with him, and I learn from it, but most of the time it isn't really necessary to my treatment. Most of the time, he just charges me the same amount--the price for a 15 minute med management consult-- no matter how much time it takes. One time, he charged me double because the session was long, but in truth, it didn't need to be long and part of it was because he was interested in talking and it was the last session on his docket. I wasn't thrilled about that but since he usually give me a lot more time than the 15 minutes he charges for, I just decided to let it go. But I do try to remind myself to keep the session focused. It's kind of a wierd situation, but he's good at the psychopharm and he is respectful of me as a patient and cares about how I experience the meds, etc. Plus, he will discuss questions about new research, etc. and respects what I've learned on my own and will look into new things, etc. for me. There aren't very many good pdocs to choose from, so the fact that he has a very quirky manner is ok.
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 19:06:05
In reply to Re: Aye, there's the rub... » Racer, posted by judy1 on January 31, 2004, at 18:37:56
I have a male therapist. I think I can only work with a male therapist because of all the issues I have with my mother. It would be hard for me to feel safe with a female therapist, I think.
Posted by shar on January 31, 2004, at 23:43:05
In reply to Shar's Soliloquies?, posted by allisonm on January 30, 2004, at 20:38:52
You may have it there, Allison; especially since the first definition fits me quite well. I've become accustomed to talking to myself, but try to avoid it while in public places. :)
Shar
> soliloquy: 1. an act or instance of talking to oneself. 2. lines in a drama in which a character reveals his or her thoughts to the audience, but not to the other characters, by speaking as if to himself or herself.
Posted by allisonm on February 1, 2004, at 15:50:26
In reply to Re: Shar's Soliloquies? » allisonm, posted by shar on January 31, 2004, at 23:43:05
I liked the first part of the second definition...sometimes it seems as though we are all in our own individual plays (or dramas) and it helps to talk to an "audience" (eg. PB) to help straighten out our thoughts...
I talk to myself all the time. In public, the same, just maybe at a little more of a whisper. :-)
Hope things are going well with you. I have lost track re' the job interview. Have you heard yet?
Posted by allisonm on February 1, 2004, at 16:01:28
In reply to Re: Aye, there's the rub... » judy1, posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 19:06:05
My pdoc is also my therp. I like this setup just fine because by talking in a therp session, he knows exactly what is going on with me and (I think) is better able to make suggestions re' ADs. I used to seem him weekly, but now every other week. (Getting better, maybe? Lately, I wonder.) I have been seeing him for going on 6 years.
I had a female CSW when I was trying to deal with my mother's alcoholism back in the late '80s, early '90s. She was young and beautiful, shapely, well-dressed, and smoked. I was young, ugly, overweight, and hated smoking. She helped me with the alcoholism stuff quite a lot. But when I ran into trouble in my relationship with my dad, she kind of pushed me and gave me an ultimatum and I never went to see her again. Sometimes the way that she talked to me felt condescending. I don't think that she meant it that way, but she seemed "too caring" if there is such a thing. And with me coming from a family that was never very physically or emotionally close, her approach felt fake.
I'm just really glad that I've found a pdoc/therp who's male. I had a crush on him for a while, but got over that. I don't think he works magic any more, however I value him very much for his insights.
Posted by shar on February 1, 2004, at 23:35:39
In reply to Re: Shar's Soliloquies? » shar, posted by allisonm on February 1, 2004, at 15:50:26
The job? Wow, that's a whole 'nother soliloquy! Bottom line, tho, I didn't get it.
It was weird, at the very least, and I think I'm glad I didn't get it. Thanks for asking!
Oh--the not-so-OK corral was really funny. It reminded me of someone who was describing another person as 'adhering to the philosophy of I'm ok, you're even better.' (You old enough to remember I'm ok-You're ok?)
Shar
Posted by allisonm on February 2, 2004, at 13:44:14
In reply to Re: Shar's Soliloquies? » allisonm, posted by shar on February 1, 2004, at 23:35:39
>>(You old enough to remember I'm ok-You're ok?)<<
Unfortunately, yes.
If that job wasn't for you, then I'm glad you didn't get it, too. There's nothing more miserable than a bad fit.
Allison
This is the end of the thread.
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