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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JennyAnn on September 30, 1999, at 9:39:22
I am really thanful for your repsonses to my posts, it helps to normalize....you see here is the paradox: when I was on paxil (before it seemed to lose effectiveness) I was not depressed! for the first time in my life, I could retrospectively look at my expereinces and emotional health and what I saw was major depression and anxiety controlling my life, my choices, coloring every aspect of me. for a while I was calm; I have attempted to achieve this calm so MANY other depstructive ways. Finally I felt ok. and then I began to sink in to the deepest depression I have ever expreinced. I know there were some situational factors that motivated this, but I also know that I have never felt to apathetic, so lethargic; my numbness became debilitating. After going off AD's, I see that the anxiety that I am riddled with, is actually an important component of my intellectual, creative experience. my depression is also a component of myself that has motivated me to produce beautiful art and poetry. SO I guess I am fighting myself here, in this message board arena, and it is a no win battle; I want to embrace the complicated parts of me, but I depserately want to feel sane, in control, balanced. I fear this is not possible, that I must sacrifice one for the other.
talk to me...any thoughts?
thanks for hearing me...
JennyAnn
Posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 11:08:42
In reply to Caught in my own head, posted by JennyAnn on September 30, 1999, at 9:39:22
Ah, now THAT'S the paxil I know and hate!
Actually, you didn't say if you went of the paxil before or after the depression hit back. Which was it?
About the link between the darkness and your "muse", I was going to say I know how you feel ... but I don't, not for a long time. Ten years ago, I was on a pre-web electronic BBS for student teachers and their instructors (I was of the latter). Student after student was complaining about this bad experience and that bad experience, all chocking them up as "learning experiences". I made me ask, "Is there any sort of learning experience that ISN'T negative?" One wonderful woman wrote a wonderful reply that listed 20-30 things, like watching the sun rise to holding your first-born for the first time, that were all positive. Even for me -- I'm not trained in any way, shape, or form as any sort of creative writer (I'm a research writer, we're not supposed to create--only document ;^)--I've written two poems about my depression and I'm working on this multimedia project to try to capture my magical misery tour on meds. But I've also written one poem that was rather passionate and racy (while keeping the language PG-13, which was an interesting challenge given the topic ... shame is I lost my only copy of it in a hard drive crash last Jan.) Meds aren't supposed to make you any less complicated. Hopefully, they'll give you new energy to do even more with your art. Sane (to some degree, at least ;^) and complicated are not mutually exclusive.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted by Dee on September 30, 1999, at 12:10:00
In reply to Caught in my own head, posted by JennyAnn on September 30, 1999, at 9:39:22
That was one of my major concerns, that I might lose my cretaivity that I somehow attributed to the depression. And I am sure that there is a correlation, if not directly with depression, thaen at least the experiences, and the places it has taken me to.
But I have to face the fact that when I was depressed I felt so bad that I couldn't sit down and write of most of the experiences and feelings that I had just because getting htere would push me to the tremendous fits of anxiety. Also what I found, that although I did write a lot during episodes of major depressions, ans soem of that writing is my best, I just pushed all that away in that forgotten corner of my harddisk, and never really picked it up again. Itr is only lately that I have gone back there and actually started the fierce labor of editing some of the thousands of pages that lay there.
I don't think that we should deny the positive effect that the depression has to our creativity, it is certainly there. I find, however, that I have been tapping into that one source for thirty years now, and I need to be able to access the other parts of my personality and other aspects of my creativityu that have been unaccessible so far. What we have felt and gone through will always been there with us, and I truly cherish the thirty years of writing from the deep dark places. But I AM NOT the depression, it is just one part of me, no more or less than any other of my qualities. And I truly find that the best thing for my creativeity right now is to staep aside and let a little more cheerful part of me to let participate in the creative process.
By the way, the medicines have not removed the depression, just made it easier to cope with... Biggest difference I find is that I am a little more social, even at my darker moments; that I can tell people that I am depressed without feeling lesser than.
Dee
Posted by jennyann on September 30, 1999, at 12:19:58
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 11:08:42
> yes, I understand:) I did not know you had such animosity for paxil..what meds are you partial to? I am diagnosed PTSD and dysthymia, anxiety disorder also...
in reference to the series of events while on paxil, I took Paxil for quite a few months, began to go down, switched to zoloft, went WAY down, went back to paxil, stayed down, and then stopped taking everything. now I feel I am on the edge of yet another cycle of depression; it is so tangible, I want to grasp it, rip it from me...and yet, it eludes my every attempt....
thanks for your support
JA
Posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 12:52:00
In reply to thanks Bob...., posted by jennyann on September 30, 1999, at 12:19:58
I'm not partial to anything -- except perhaps clonazepam. When I've forgotten to take it in the AM, I certainly know it, feel it, by noon ... I know what it prevents. But there is some subtle, undefinable something that has been different since I've been on clonazepam ... I don't know what it is, but I know it's there, and it's the only med I'm truly grateful to be taking. (btw, clonazepam = generic klonopin; I'm also on zoloft and nortriptyline.)
Paxil, from the start, was a nightmare for me. The only thing it did was support me enough to keep my nose above water, and thank God the waters were still at the time. I felt complete emotional detachment from my life, except for the slightest trace of sadness ... which made things worse. It let me know how bad I felt to be missing things -- in all the emotional silence, that shred of sadness was like a scream. But no matter how much I wanted to, I just couldn't cry. Not a single tear. It was truly maddening. After giving it two months, I demanded to switch. So did my GP -- SSRIs were playing havoc with my cholesterol and he wanted me off of them altogether. So, after a bit of a wash-out period, I was to start wellbutrin. Two days into tapering off the paxil, the withdrawal hit. Rage. Terror at beign outside or around people. Whole body shakes. It felt like my nerves were on fire. I started up on the Wellbutrin and all of that disappeared immediately. That period where I was starting up the wellbutrin and washing out the paxil wound up being one of my best months or so on ADs, but the effects of being on either one alone scare the hell out of me, and wellbutrin hasn't had the same boosting effect from/with prozac, either.
So that's my paxil nightmare in a nutshell...what p*ss*s me off so much about it right now is the add for paxil in this week's TV Guide, up in the color pages very near the front. While the ad might be a blessing in general for trying to ride Bob Dole's "ED" coattails and bring social phobia into the realm of disorders that it's okay to admit you have and to talk about, it's blowing waaaay too much sunshine about itself on that first page, giving the impression that its as gentle as an herbal tea or something. Of course, that first page of the ad is followed by a two-page spread of the drug monograph, printed in about 6-point type, and 90% of that being contraindications, warnings, and side-effect information. ARgh!!!!
Sorry ... just had to vent. I'm glad it works for some people ... I just wish it had NEVER entered my life.
Grr
Bob
Posted by Dee on September 30, 1999, at 13:00:05
In reply to thanks Bob...., posted by jennyann on September 30, 1999, at 12:19:58
Hey! What about thanx DEE? ;o)
xxx
Dee
Posted by jennyann on September 30, 1999, at 13:03:07
In reply to Re: thanks Bob...., posted by Dee on September 30, 1999, at 13:00:05
> yes, every bit of input is appreciated...thanks yall!
JA
Posted by Sean on September 30, 1999, at 14:10:59
In reply to Caught in my own head, posted by JennyAnn on September 30, 1999, at 9:39:22
> I am really thanful for your repsonses to my posts, it helps to normalize....you see here is the paradox: when I was on paxil (before it seemed to lose effectiveness) I was not depressed! for the first time in my life, I could retrospectively look at my expereinces and emotional health and what I saw was major depression and anxiety controlling my life, my choices, coloring every aspect of me. for a while I was calm; I have attempted to achieve this calm so MANY other depstructive ways. Finally I felt ok. and then I began to sink in to the deepest depression I have ever expreinced. I know there were some situational factors that motivated this, but I also know that I have never felt to apathetic, so lethargic; my numbness became debilitating. After going off AD's, I see that the anxiety that I am riddled with, is actually an important component of my intellectual, creative experience. my depression is also a component of myself that has motivated me to produce beautiful art and poetry. SO I guess I am fighting myself here, in this message board arena, and it is a no win battle; I want to embrace the complicated parts of me, but I depserately want to feel sane, in control, balanced. I fear this is not possible, that I must sacrifice one for the other.
> talk to me...any thoughts?
> thanks for hearing me...
> JennyAnnI have *lots* of thoughts on this as I can totally
relate to the depth/depression/art thing vs.
being stable and joyous. I also have problems
with the SSRI's not working after a few months
and actually missing parts of myself when I am
on them. My answer has been to phase on and off
the meds which my doc does not like me doing
and I agree is not a good answer. I'm actually
going to the doc today to switch to a mood
stabilizer and a different AD. Will let you know...
Sean.
Posted by Dee on September 30, 1999, at 14:37:52
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Sean on September 30, 1999, at 14:10:59
>
> I have *lots* of thoughts on this as I can totally
> relate to the depth/depression/art thing vs.
> being stable and joyous.I don't think creativity is anything that we can just simply assume is there. For me, I find it to be a result of a very hard living and work, perhaps coupled with an innate disposition.
I've gone this path before - when I stopped taking street drugs, and I felt that I was killing my creativity. And it did take a couple of years before I was able to do anything with it again. And the result was a different kind of energy, a new perspective and new kind of introspection.
Then again when I got on AD's I was afraid that the depression deficiency would kill the soulful me. But I have learned not to worry. The way I see it, some of my unproductive periods are phases of growing, when my creativity is learning its ways around the new circumstances, and once that has happened, I find bursts of uninhibited energy that just wishes to get down on paper.
The best thing I can do to nurture my creativity is to try to live as many lives as possible, to increase the diversity of my frames of reference, to try to see the world and myself in different ways. Sometimes I may find the street where I live breathtakingly beautiful in sunlight, some other time in moonlight, or being covered with snow. These are all different experiences, and I cannot say that any one is above any other. It is not the still image that inspires, it is the progress, the change, the winds that blow over us.
The same way I want to cherish the expression that is in me that is depression and anxiety, and the powerful creative energy that it creates. But uniformity is death, I get the true perspective on depression when I have a few sunny days to refer to, when I can light a candle in the dark and let the contrast blow me away.
I am in the process of trying to find that brighter side of my living, still, and always holding on to the experiences and growth that the depression has brought me. But after thirty years it has ceased to give me much more than pain, the result of it has been harvested over and over, and it is about time for me to plant some new seeds, and grow toward accepting a new perspective to my life.
The fog is lifting, and I am seeing possibilities I never dreamed would exist.
Posted by dove on September 30, 1999, at 15:10:00
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Sean on September 30, 1999, at 14:10:59
I think something is in the air lately. I have been ruminating for the last couple days over these same issues. I feel this desperate need to create, now! I love to write, play piano, draw ect..(artsy stuff) It is winding up like a clock inside, waiting for that alarm to ring and set me free.
The physiognomy of this creativity seems grounded in pain and devouring energy, I feel like I will have to relinquish my creativity to be sane or create and reside in ruin. I have written more in the last three days than in the last year, specifically on this board.
I used to view this message board once a day, quietly digesting and lurking. Lately, I feel this urgent need to dispel these thoughts that have been revolving in my mind. It's as if my emotions have been locked up for some time and I opened the door just a sliver and the monster inside has shoved its way out and is challenging my authority. I don't know if I'm fighting it or allowing it to have it's way.
~dove (audaciously rambling on again.)
Maybe the changing season is causing all this chaos.
Posted by dove on September 30, 1999, at 15:25:39
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by dove on September 30, 1999, at 15:10:00
Dee,
I didn't see your message until after I posted mine. I just wanted to say that you are very articulate and inspiring. I enjoyed the examples you used and hope to put these ideas to practical use. I know I can't force myself to feel different but it is good to see the bright side of not being an emotional basket-case, and the possibility of creating from a new pool of resources. Thank you!
dove
Posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 15:30:52
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Dee on September 30, 1999, at 14:37:52
Sometimes this board just leaves me speechless. =^)
Posted by Noa on September 30, 1999, at 18:39:20
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 15:30:52
I also had the experience of not being able to cry at all, but it was on Prozac, not Paxil. The paxil caused bad muscle twitching.
As for creativity, there was a time when I felt my depresssion was the price for the gift of sensitivity/poeticism, but then the depression got to be way too powerful and devastating, that it killed the creativity anyway. Been struggling to get a handle on it all, so I don't really know if I will feel unable to access any creative part of myself when the treatment is effective enough. Feeling better, but still struggling, and don't feel very creative, just trying to manage. I'll let you know.
Posted by Noa on September 30, 1999, at 18:40:57
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 15:30:52
I like the phrase "caught in my own head". I have often called it "living inside my head", it is the feeling of being way too absorbed in anxious and depressive thoughts to come out of my head and relate to the world.
Posted by dj on October 2, 1999, at 11:46:36
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by Noa on September 30, 1999, at 18:40:57
Otherwise known as obsessing -- and the hamster cage goes round & round & nowhere...
> I like the phrase "caught in my own head". I have often called it "living inside my head", it is the feeling of being way too absorbed in anxious and depressive thoughts to come out of my head and relate to the world.
Posted by Ruth on October 3, 1999, at 19:46:00
In reply to Re: Caught in my own head, posted by dj on October 2, 1999, at 11:46:36
It is very helpful to me to read of your experiences. I've experienced it as if I'm living in another plane and can't quite connect to what's around me. Sometimes I feel guilty that I am so caught up in my own thoughts and feelings. When I was profoundly depressed I was unaware of how much I was caught up in my internal world. Now I feel like I should be connecting more. I think part of it is that while the anti depressants have made a big difference, I still feel that I'm using a lot of energy of my own to keep the beast at bay.
One positive is that as I've felt better I've started playing the piano again, a piece of my creative side that had gotten locked away.
> Otherwise known as obsessing -- and the hamster cage goes round & round & nowhere...
>
> > I like the phrase "caught in my own head". I have often called it "living inside my head", it is the feeling of being way too absorbed in anxious and depressive thoughts to come out of my head and relate to the world.
This is the end of the thread.
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