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Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:08:51
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
i wonder if like othe remeron side effects the lower dose is actually making it worse? even if it's a w/d effect...i hope you can get off it soon and without much trouble...
take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:13:51
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
hey cashy,
in my experience, going slow is the way to go. i'd give it at least a month if not even longer on the 15mg. the way my doctor described it was basically giving your body the amount of time you'd give it on a new increased dose of something to see how your depressiion symptoms are.
i agree about the exercise. yoga and relaxation methods have helped me a lot too.
take care,
jules
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » cashy72, posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:13:51
> the way my doctor described it was basically giving your body the amount of time you'd give it on a new increased dose of something to see how your depressiion symptoms are.
I agree with your doctor's abstraction. However, the time necessary to allow the brain to adapt is probably closer to 2 weeks. If a dosage decrease is going to produce withdrawal symptoms, it will do so regardless of the time allowed to elapse beyond this 2-week period. The key is to attempt to reduce the dosage by an amount small enough to prevent an intense withdrawal syndrome that lasts for weeks. I think it is better to think in terms of percentage reductions than absolute amounts. The percentage difference between 7.5mg and 3.75mg is as large as the percentage difference between 30mg and 15mg. 50% is a big number. It might be better to reduce by 25% every 2 weeks or even 10% every week. I guess the bottom line is to allow your body to tell you how large a dosage decrease is comfortable and how long it takes for the brain to stabilize.
While there is nothing counterproductive with waiting months between dosage decreases, I don't think it is necessary.
- Scott
Posted by johnnyj on April 22, 2006, at 8:28:36
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
Hi Scott,
When I lowered my benzo dose I had withdrawal for two weeks and then on the last dose for one month. I read a decent book about withdrawal last year and it said after your last symptoms you should wait a week for the brain to "heal" a tad more.
IMHO, the biggest problem with remeron is the more sedating it is a lower doses. For me, this sedating effect actually manifests itself in terms of heavy head/headache and it makes me feel more depressed. My hope is that this is only true to certain point(dose). For example, down to 7.5 MAY be more sedating but if you cut that down to 3.75 maybe that dose will have less "sponge brain" effects. I just get this feeling that is the case with remeron.
Also, it becomes impossible to cut 10% of a 7.5 mg tablet or Sol-tab. I may mix mine in water and use a syringe that my pharmacist gave me to dose it out. I can cut it by 20% or so. I may just go from 7.5 to 3.75 just because I want to taper a little quicker though. I have found that the last dose you go from to zero is the hardest. With my benzo that was certainly the case. I was very depressed for a month after I stopped my benzo. But, after about a month in a day or two things dramatically improved. Our bodies are very interesting.
Peace
johnnyj
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 9:23:54
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 22, 2006, at 8:28:36
Hi.
> I read a decent book about withdrawal last year and it said after your last symptoms you should wait a week for the brain to "heal" a tad more.
That sounds very reasonable. I'll remember to do that for myself should I find myself in such a predicament.
By the way, how would you describe "sponge brain"? I was never on Remeron long enough find out.
You know, I never realized how difficult it was to discontinue Remeron until these threads appeared. Everyone focuses so much on SRI drugs. I guess Remeron gets no respect.
Good luck. I hope you can get clean without too much more discomfort.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 12:12:10
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
Thanks Scott, yeah I forgot to mention that I had a lot of life events going on which made us decide to go super slowly and cautiously. (one period was 6+ months before the next reduction.) Each reduction was 50%. In hindsight it probably wouldn't have been a bad idea to do 25% as you suggest.
take care,
jules
Posted by SandyWeb on April 22, 2006, at 18:00:44
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 12:12:10
My experience with Remeron seems a bit different from yours. I've been on 45mg daily for almost 2 years for anxiety and a suicide attempt. I really had a lot of success with it, and I would still be on it except for the massive weight gain. The "Remeron Hunger". I gained over 50 pounds in those 2 years. I was concerned about diabetes, and even though Topamax was a wonder drug and stopped the hunger and made me lose lots of weight, the med was not approved for me due to not being an epileptic....and I had to give it up because I couldn't afford it. Without the Topamax, I knew the "Remeron Hunger" would return. And I was fitting into my regular clothes again!!! Do you know how wonderful that is?
I quit both Topamax (225 mg daily) and Remeron (45 mg daily) cold-turkey. I had to. I was out of Topamax, and I COULD NOT allow the hunger to come back. I quit both these meds, which I loved both of them, on April 13th.....10 days ago. I'm fine. I had a little ringing in my ears, and I can't say that anything more happened....other than I still do not have an appetite. I'm still losing weight, which is fine with me. I know that I'll start getting hungry one day.
So....it CAN be done. I really thought I was going to have w/d problems with the Remeron because it is such a powerful med. But nothing. I feel fine. So some people may need to taper in order to get off the med, and some people may be able to just plain quit. I guess it all depends on individual body chemistry. Maybe try a cold-turkey quit. You may be surprised. But if w/d symptoms are a real factor, then most definately go to a taper.
I still use 100 mg Seroquel to help me sleep at night, so I'm not missing any shut-eye from the lack of Remeron. I use Inderal LA 80 mg twice per day to keep the adrenaline from flooding my heart and increasing my chances of a panic attack (plus keeps my BP and HR at a steady rhythum). And I have Klonopin for my pre-existing social anxiety. I've been on these meds basically as long as the Remeron; the Klonopin is a replacement for Ativan, which I didn't like.
I felt normal on Remeron. If not for the weight gain, I would have stayed on it because it wasn't doing any harm and I didn't know what to expect if I went off it. But again...I'm fine. A great deal of life stressors right now (oh boy!!!), but everything is coming along as expected. Some tears, some anxiety....but to be expected for what is happening right now in my life.
I wish you all the best in your tapering or cold-turkey. I guess I've just been lucky. And I absolutely LOVE not having so many pills to take anymore!!!!!!!
Good luck to you all!
Sandy
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:25:53
In reply to Anyone feel this way on remeron?, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 11:38:33
>Hello Johnny:
Yes some of this rings true.. Ive had so much agitation with being on Remeron... more anxiousness and sponge brain feeling too.
The agitation has improved since taking herbal relax.. and also since i have been weaning off the remeron it has made a difference as well.
I NEVER had these problems with agitation before when not on medication.good luck
Yes we shall beat this remeron crap
Musky
I should have asked this before but I went off remeron for 8-10 days last November and the insomnia was so bad I went back on 7.5. Well, I felt much WORSE going back on but I sleep ok. It's as if the heavy head "sponge brain" is really deep in my head. It gives me headaches too. I have had some anxiety too which was absent for almost 2 years, except when weaning meds. Anybody else feel this way?
>
> I wondered if it is just the old anxiety/depression returning but something doesn't sit right with that since when I was off for that short time I felt better but had trouble sleeping. I didn't have much anxiety when off either. I felt "real" when off and my body was craving input because it had been so long. Does any of this ring true for you all? Thank you.
>
> johnnyj
>
> We shall defeat the remeron!
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:29:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:30:01
>Nope, never had this head stuff going on until I started The Remeron..
The only time i was in a depressed mode was when I couldnt work because of chronic neck issues/dizzyness... and that was to be expected considering my situation... I have since been getting proper treatment to adress my neck problem.. and It WASNT the meds that helped my neck it was my chiropractor and deep tissue massage that has turned this around..
later
Muskywalking is so good for you. keep doing it!
>
> i'm sorry to hear your head stuff is still so hard. was it a symptom you had before with your depression?
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:37:32
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
> Hey Cashy:
I dont mean to sound too cautious , but I have been weaning very slowly...(over a year now).. I would suggest you go from 30mg to 25 mg,,, if you have a pill cutter, thats what I have used. I cut the half of the 30mg in quarters.. or for example if you have the 30mg is as one pill(as mine is)I would cut that in half giving me 15mg sizes.. then I would cut one of the 15mg sizes in half giving you 2x7.5mg.. then take one 15mg size plus one of the 7.5mg size which equals roughly 25mg or 22.5mg.. then stay at this dosage until stable.. for me it took about 2-3months , then I would cut back another 10% again. What i mean by 10% is from the original dosage you were on..
For me it was about 4.5mg each time I would reduce as I was originally on 45mg..Good luck
be patient... trust me its easier.Musky
Hey guys, it's really supporting too me knowing their are many others wanting too get of these a/d's and sharing experiences. I'm just about too lower my 30mg remeron, too 15mg. How long do you think i should stick with the 15 for, b4 lowering again?
> I've suffered with the spongy head symptoms, and groggy feeling which im 100% sure is the remeron. It's like it's masking and changing your normal state of mind. I find when im like this a nice 30-40 min jog, or time on the exercise bike helps, and building up a sweat makes me feel a lot clearer, and less heavy headed.
> Hope your all feeling good.....
> Take it easy. Cashy72
Posted by johnnyj on April 24, 2006, at 14:27:53
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 9:23:54
Sponge brain is like the heaviness a sponge gets when it is soaked to the core. I have a constant pressure in my forehead and it is followed by a numb or dumb feeling. My thinking is somewhat slow and I have trouble reading or seeing everything. I find myself skipping lines or not really seeing everything when I read. Wicked drug and in a day or two I go from 7.5 to 3.75. I have to be free of this drug.
johnnyj
Posted by cashy72 on April 25, 2006, at 2:54:50
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 24, 2006, at 14:27:53
Hey Johnny, yeah i feel exactly the same about this as you do. Same kinda feelings, or lack of them! Good luck with the 3.75mg, who'll be fine mate... stick with it, and in a few weeks you can kick this stuff.
Take it easy.
cashy72
Posted by jules354 on April 25, 2006, at 14:30:08
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 24, 2006, at 14:27:53
that sounds so rough, johnnyj. hang in there. did you go down to 3.75? how long till you kick that dose?
take care,
jules
Posted by johnnyj on April 25, 2006, at 21:10:37
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by jules354 on April 25, 2006, at 14:30:08
Actually, I am contemplating the reduction tonight. I don't think there is a good time really. I am a little scared ya know? I just hope my sleep will return to normal and the insomnia is not too bad. Wish me luck everyone.
johnnyj
Posted by musky on April 26, 2006, at 0:38:19
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 25, 2006, at 21:10:37
>Good luck johnny... try to stay positive... I'm kinda scared too, but im not dwelling on it too much.. just under 1month until i am completely off the remeron.. been on about 2mg for the last 2months...
been exercising,, it helps even out the mood, and the nightmares have been much better since tapering...
Dont let your fear rule you...
MuskyActually, I am contemplating the reduction tonight. I don't think there is a good time really. I am a little scared ya know? I just hope my sleep will return to normal and the insomnia is not too bad. Wish me luck everyone.
>
> johnnyj
Posted by Marian29 on April 26, 2006, at 7:52:34
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on February 22, 2006, at 19:51:26
I *thought* I'd posted in this thread, but can't find my previous posts. Oh well. Just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my queries. I've managed to be Remeron-free for four days, after a short tapering period. Sleeping is difficult, and when I do sleep the nightmares are apocalyptic. But I am beginning to be able to fall asleep every other night by taking some Bendaryl (guess I'm totally exhausted by then). I'm recovering from surgery, so can't exercise at my normal pace for about 3 more weeks, but am determined to start walking again today. My mood is good, surprisingly--I'd anticipated a full blown return of the anxiety/depression, but so far so good.
When do I start losing the weight I'd gained, lol?
Posted by cashy72 on April 26, 2006, at 9:19:48
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Marian29 on April 26, 2006, at 7:52:34
Well done Marion, how long have you been taking Mirtazapine?? I've just tapering down now from 30mg too 15mg. How quickly did you lower the dose over? i'd be interested too know how you got on.
Whenever in the past i've forgotten to have my 30mg at nighttime the nightmares have been very strong, really freaky, and heavy sweating during the night? Is this what you've experienced??
It goes too show what a powerful drug this is...
Good luck
Cashy72
Posted by johnnyj on April 26, 2006, at 9:29:04
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 26, 2006, at 0:38:19
I slept close to 7 hours so I feel ok, a little anxious but that is to be expected. I feel a little spacey but not bad.
If you are on 2 mg I think it is just a matter of time before you are off for good. I can't reall see much benefit at these lower doses for anixety or depression. I think if you are on a low dose and have stabilized it is doable. I go for acupuncture this Friday.
cheers
johnnyj
Posted by Marian29 on April 26, 2006, at 12:28:53
In reply to Cut dose to 3.75 last night? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 26, 2006, at 9:29:04
I'd only been taking it for four months, so I guess I was lucky. It sounds like a true horror to get off of if you've been on it for longer than that.
Yeah, the nightmares and the night sweats--what an experience! But a little Benadryl really does seem to help. I also have very low dose xanax (.25 mg) on hand, and have had to take it in the middle of the night occasionally.
My insomnia was terrible before the Remeron, which was one of the reasons the psych gave it to me. I'll be starting from square one on that again. But nothing is worth the weight gain.
Posted by Marian29 on April 26, 2006, at 12:34:00
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 26, 2006, at 9:19:48
Cashy, I cut my usual dose of 30 mg to 15 mg for two nights--then took that every other night for a couple of nights--then just stopped. I know you're not supposed to do that, but I've been laid up and out of the gym for almost a month because of surgery, and I was desperate not to put on too much additional weight. The thing I've found with this drug is that if you do gain any weight while on it, it's absolutely impossible to take it off--and I've been eating very carefully and working out hard every day (except for the month after the surgery). So I'd rather experience the dreadfulness of the cold turkey now and get it out of my system, and then ask the psych for a new med that's weight-neutral. (Guess I'll have to figure out how to sleep again, too).
Good luck to you, too. I think this drug is nefarious, and never would have taken it if I'd known what it can do.
Posted by jules354 on April 26, 2006, at 13:25:33
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Marian29 on April 26, 2006, at 12:34:00
For everyone who has bad insomnia (even before taking Remeron), have you checked out Trazadone? I took it at one time and have no idea what its interactions are with other meds, but I remember liking it. It was nice and mild, and not habit forming.
Marian29, i think you're right about not only the weight gain but how hard it is to get it off...i believe rem. affects your metabolism as well. it's so frustrating!
take care,
jules
Posted by johnnyj on April 29, 2006, at 10:09:15
In reply to Cut dose to 3.75 last night? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 26, 2006, at 9:29:04
I have been on 3.75 since Tuesday. I slept great on Thursday night. I had acupuncture on Friday and slept ok, woke up in the middle of the night once. When falling asleep I jerked awake once and that was not fun.
Acupuncutre didn't seem to do much for me to tell you the truth. I will go few more times and see if there is any benefit.
I definately feel that a slow taper is probably best since I can feel the grip of sponge brain lessen a tad since reducing my dose. Things are clearer also, but there is a little anxiety.
How is everyone else doing?
cheers
johnnyj
Posted by Marian29 on April 29, 2006, at 16:01:39
In reply to Re: Cut dose to 3.75 last night?, posted by johnnyj on April 29, 2006, at 10:09:15
Glad you're doing well, Johnny! Hope the anxiety doesn't get too bad for you.
I'm off completely as of a week ago. No depression, manageable leve of anxiety--but it's almost impossible to sleep. As I start to drift off, I wake up in a panic, and this happens over and over again all night. I tried Benadryl, but it didn't work; my doc gave me some Ambien, but that makes me horribly down and wiped out the next day--it's not worth it.
I really don't want to take another drug to get to sleep, but may need to find some relief soon. Any ideas out there? (I'm postmenopausal, very physically active).
Thanks!
Posted by jules354 on April 29, 2006, at 21:55:53
In reply to Re: Cut dose to 3.75 last night?, posted by Marian29 on April 29, 2006, at 16:01:39
Hi Marian29,
i was waking up in a panic for about 2 weeks after discontinuing. i still sometimes wake up with some anxiety in the morning, but my sleep got a lot better. i'd recommend hanging in there a bit longer if you can, try not eating too late in the evening and doing something relaxing before bed (yoga, meditation, tea etc.).
if things don't get better, in the past i've tried trazadone for sleep and it worked well for me.
take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 29, 2006, at 21:58:07
In reply to Re: Cut dose to 3.75 last night?, posted by johnnyj on April 29, 2006, at 10:09:15
so glad to hear you're feeling better!
i'm doing pretty well...my appetite is stabilizing a bit too.
take care,
jules
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