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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 158. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Homosexuality is an 'adjustment disorder' » one woman cine, posted by Quintal on March 15, 2007, at 15:48:40
> Homosexuality clearly isn't normal (it may be acceptable in many circles, but not normal), and I don't know of any biologists or physicians that would categorize it as such.
I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Quintal, posted by Ken Blades on March 16, 2007, at 0:46:16
> If you're that comfortable with this 'stuff',
> then there's not much reason to bring it up
> for discussion, is there? Unless you just
> want to litter the board pointlessly.I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Larry Hoovers, Quintal, Yxibow, Blueberry??? » Quintal, posted by yxibow on March 16, 2007, at 1:59:33
> I don't know about homosexuality but the failed science fiction right is persuasive, just look at the many web sites they own, non-FDA "e-meter" devices and levels one has to climb and wierd science fiction references to Xenu, all now an official religion in the US, because the IRS wasn't able to stand up to their high powered lawyers and secret internal monitoring bureau (paid by the ponzi scheme that Scientology does to get people to give money to get to these levels and secret papers, some leaked and multiple lawsuits) and dismiss them as not being a religion and ultimately making them tax exempt.
I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others (including Scientologists) to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Normal, posted by FredPotter on March 16, 2007, at 3:37:09
> However men, to put the cat amongst the pigeons) are these days made into demons by a sizeable proportion of the female population, of whatever sexual persuasion. It seems more and more women humiliate men for not being like them, and in the case of heterosexual women, increasingly desert them, usually taking, and having custody of the children.
I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others (including women) to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by one woman cine on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Homosexuality is an 'adjustment disorder' » one woman cine, posted by Quintal on March 15, 2007, at 15:48:40
The AGLP (association of gay and lesbian psychiatrists) have made the following statements about reparative therapy. The organization has been instrumental in taking a stand against hate and discrimination that gay men and women today face.
Their website is here with their position statements. They are, needless to say, a wonderful group of intelligent and caring individuals who have made great strides for the gay community in medicine and society's perceptions as a whole.
"Reparative" Therapy
Committee on Psychotherapy by Psychiatrists (COPP) Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies)Approved by the Board of Trustees March 2000
Approved by the Assembly May 2000
Preamble
In December of 1998, the Board of Trustees issued a position statement that the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as "reparative" or conversion therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation (Appendix 1). In doing so, the APA joined many other professional organizations that either oppose or are critical of "reparative" therapies, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and the National Association of Social Workers (1). The following Position Statement expands and elaborates upon the statement issued by the Board of Trustees in order to further address public and professional concerns about therapies designed to change a patient's sexual orientation or sexual identity. It augments rather than replaces the 1998 statement.
Position Statement
In the past, defining homosexuality as an illness buttressed society's moral opprobrium of same-sex relationships (2). In the current social climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality. Consequently, the issue of changing sexual orientation has become highly politicized. The integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society is opposed by those who fear that such integration is morally wrong and harmful to the social fabric. The political and moral debates surrounding this issue have obscured the scientific data by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue. This document attempts to shed some light on this heated issue.The validity, efficacy and ethics of clinical attempts to change an individual's sexual orientation have been challenged (3,4,5,6). To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments. There is sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of "reparative" therapies. The literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims (7,8,9).
Although there is little scientific data about the patients who have undergone these treatments, it is still possible to evaluate the theories, which rationalize the conduct of "reparative" and conversion therapies. Firstly, they are at odds with the scientific position of the American Psychiatric Association which has maintained, since 1973, that homosexuality per se, is not a mental disorder. The theories of "reparative" therapists define homosexuality as either a developmental arrest, a severe form of psychopathology, or some combination of both (10-15). In recent years, noted practitioners of "reparative" therapy have openly integrated older psychoanalytic theories that pathologies homosexuality with traditional religious beliefs condemning homosexuality (16,17,18).
The earliest scientific criticisms of the early theories and religious beliefs informing "reparative" or conversion therapies came primarily from sexology researchers (19-27). Later, criticisms emerged from psychoanalytic sources as well (28-39). There has also been an increasing body of religious thought arguing against traditional, biblical interpretations that condemn homosexuality and which underlie religious types of "reparative" therapy (40-46).
Recommendations:
1. APA affirms its 1973 position that homosexuality per se is not a diagnosable mental disorder. Recent publicized efforts to repathologize homosexuality by claiming that it can be cured are often guided not by rigorous scientific or psychiatric research, but sometimes by religious and political forces opposed to full civil rights for gay men and lesbians. APA recommends that the APA respond quickly and appropriately as a scientific organization when claims that homosexuality is a curable illness are made by political or religious groups.2. As a general principle, a therapist should not determine the goal of treatment either coercively or through subtle influence. Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or "repair" homosexuality are based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of "cures" are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last four decades, "reparative" therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, APA recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.
3. The "reparative" therapy literature uses theories that make it difficult to formulate scientific selection criteria for their treatment modality. This literature not only ignores the impact of social stigma in motivating efforts to cure homosexuality; it is a literature that actively stigmatizes homosexuality as well. "Reparative" therapy literature also tends to overstate the treatment's accomplishments while neglecting any potential risks to patients. APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determines "reparative" therapy's risks versus its benefits.
Posted by one woman cine on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to AGLP - homosexuality and hate » Quintal, posted by one woman cine on March 16, 2007, at 10:02:14
There is also a list of gay and lesbian psychiatrists from the AGLP -
If anyone wants more info about this, you can babblemail me.
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Please be civil » FredPotter, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2007, at 9:35:26
All posts relating to administrative actions have been redirected to the Administrative Board.
Here is a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070304/msgs/741698.html
Please direct all future posts on the administrative aspects of this thread to the Administrative Board.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Redirected to Administrative Board » Dinah, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2007, at 20:58:31
It was supposed to be about anxiety before depression or vice versa. Wow.
:)
Posted by yxibow on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Where did this post go off on such a tangent?, posted by UgottaHaveHope on March 17, 2007, at 3:24:42
> It was supposed to be about anxiety before depression or vice versa. Wow.
>
> :)Tangents make for an interesting discussion. 'td be bland otherwise :)
Speaking of which the board has been very slow.
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by yxibow on March 17, 2007, at 11:04:05
Jay tell me about the board it used to be relaxing to come here now I feel unless it is corrected I must search out another board. Love Phillipa and Bob is never here anymore.
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Quintal, posted by Ken Blades on March 16, 2007, at 0:46:16
I tried redirecting the thread to the psychology board with this post yesterday, but the link failed. It's still over there on Psychology.
--------------------------------------------------
>If you're that comfortable with this 'stuff',
then there's not much reason to bring it up
for discussion, is there?Yes, I find it interesting and I'd like to explore it further with an intelligent audience.
>Unless you just
want to litter the board pointlessly.I can't help but think you would welcome the discussion if I took the opposite point of view. It's far from pointless.
>If you want to indulge in self-analysis,
you don't have to tell the whole world.I don't think I am telling the whole world. I'm sharing this and getting feedback from a specific group.
>The depression and anxiety/social anxiety is NOT
due to one's homosexuality...it is due to SOCIETAL/parental response TO it...at least
this seems theoretically possibleI said; "A lot of the depression and anxiety (particularly social anxiety) homosexual men suffer is directly due to their sexuality and the problems it causes adjusting to society."............. i.e. it's the problems being attracted to your own sex causes in trying to adjust to society's (and your own) expectations, especially during adolescence, that leads to anxiety and depression for most. I've never felt any pressure to change my sexuality from parents, or the people around me - they've all been very supportive.
The main things that dissatisfy me about my homosexuality are:
* Mis-matching genitals, this makes sex uncomfortable and awkward, often necessitating artificial aids and interventions to keep things running smoothly. I find this expensive and unpleasant, and also a little unnatural.
* Playing an ancillary role to mainstream society, especially in the role of parenting/family life.
* Finding heterosexual men more attractive than homosexual men. Finding many homosexual men a little repellent. This causes problems when seeking a potential mate.
>And 'beneath all the veneer and bluster of Gay Pride self-loathing still runs deep' might be
reflective of your own phase on the way to
[hopefully] self-acceptance, but that self-loathing still runs deep in the greater gay community is quite a stretch on your part.I don't think it is. I notice an undercurrent of misery and dissatisfaction in gay literature, art, film etc and I think that reflects the lives of most gay men. Beneath all the colour, flamboyance and placard waving of the Gay Rights movement this is still the reality for most gay men that I meet, see and read about. I used to go to a gay social/support group a few years ago and I found it depressing. Being in a supposedly supportive environment wasn't uplifting, if anything it highlighted everything that was disordered and dysfunctional about us.
>You're in denial if you think there IS a solution
to the 'problem'!I'll answer this separately in another post as therein lies the crux of 'the problem'.
>This board is SUPPOSED to be about medications, not rambling on about your
sexuality, self-loathing and some loony sci-fi
writer's opinions about homosexuality, right?I've already suggested the thread be moved to the Psychology board. I tried redirecting it with my last post, but the two boards didn't link.
Q
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Ken Blades, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 13:38:58
>You're in denial if you think there IS a solution
to the 'problem'!I get the impression you're assuming I want to change my sexuality in some way? I would rather change my gender (albeit temporarily) for sex. In my imagination I take the female role, literally of being mounted and penetrated. I can feel the penis entering my vagina. So from this I might be better categorized as transsexual? The problem is that I identify my gender as male, I'm comfortable in a male body, have no wish to change it, yet have the sexual and 'emotional disposition' of a woman. I can also imagine myself penetrating a man - so long as he has a vagina......... I wish there were a race of men that had vaginas and female reproductive organs. They would be my ideal sex partners.
It brings into question the meaning of gender - is it really in the gonads, or is it as the intersex people suggest, more about facial features, hair, clothes and personality? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheryl_Chase_(activist)
I can't help but think this has more to do with my mother treating me as a girl when I was a child rather than some congenital disposition that would have happened anyway. I also think this could easily be categorized as pathological, certainly an adjustment disorder.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
Quintal firstly a good majority of the best looking guys to me are homosexual and it really sounds more to me that you might be one of those people as it's very commone to be born looking like one sex and really being the opposite. I know a lot of surger is being done to correct the mistake mother nature made. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by yxibow on March 17, 2007, at 11:04:05
> Speaking of which the board has been very slow.
Yes nobody comments on my posts. I feel like I'm keeping the whole thing going Fred
Posted by Declan on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
Congratulations.
Posted by Iansf on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
> I can't help but think this has more to do with my mother treating me as a girl when I was a child rather than some congenital disposition that would have happened anyway. I also think this could easily be categorized as pathological, certainly an adjustment disorder.
>
> QThere's definitely a distinction between transgender identification and homosexuality. A significant percentage of people, especially men, who seek gender reassignment are straight and, indeed, become gay or lesbian only by virtue of changing gender. Being dressed and treated as a girl by your mother may have influenced many aspects of your personality, but it likely had nothing to do with your being attracted to men.
Posted by Ken Blades on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent?, posted by FredPotter on March 17, 2007, at 19:18:20
Don't worry Fred...I feel the same way[except
for THIS thread unfortunately lol]...
just take a look around...MY posts many times
are THREAD KILLERS! Makes me hesitant to
participate[which may be the idea lol].[such power I wield!]
-----------------------------------------
Yes nobody comments on my posts. I feel like I'm keeping the whole thing going Fred
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Thinking outside the box » Quintal, posted by Declan on March 17, 2007, at 20:23:15
All would be solved if only God/the creator being person(s) would follow my blueprint for human reproductive organs outlined below;
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p46/Serepham/HermDraw2.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p46/Serepham/HermDrawFront.jpgNo more arguments over leaving the toilet seat up, childbearing could be shared/alternated between partners, no more discrimination for gays/bisexuals/transgendered persons etc, etc, etc.
Q
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Sexuality With Reference to Gender » Quintal, posted by Iansf on March 17, 2007, at 21:15:00
If my childhood experiences were powerful enough to mould my personality into identifying emotionally with the opposite sex, it seems very likely that it would also have influenced my sexuality in some way.
Q
Posted by Ken Blades on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:36
In reply to Quintal's Final Solution, to the Gender Question, posted by Quintal on March 18, 2007, at 0:50:57
Did Dr. Frankenstein[Colin Clive]call Dr.
Pretorius[Ernest Thesiger]and put in an
order to Fritz[Dwight Frye]? When is the
experiment to proceed?
Posted by FredPotter on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:36
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
Yeah! The Who. I'm a boy, I'm a boy, but my Ma won't admit it! There's a lot in that song. Your post was very interesting. But a point of order Mr Chairperson. Gender is a grammatical term having often more than two types (neuter is the third - there are probably more). What's wrong with the word sex?
Fred
Posted by kaleidoscope on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:36
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
Hi Q
>I can also imagine myself penetrating a man - so long as he has a vagina......... I wish there were a race of men that had vaginas and female reproductive organs. They would be my ideal sex partners.
.....but Q, if he had a vagina, he wouldn't be a man.........and I thought you were attracted to men. If you want a vagina, why not have sex with a woman? I am a little confused by this.
K
Posted by kaleidoscope on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:36
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent?, posted by FredPotter on March 17, 2007, at 19:18:20
Hi Fred
You make some very good points, especially about the way men are being humiliated.
K
Posted by kaleidoscope on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:36
In reply to Quintal's Final Solution, to the Gender Question, posted by Quintal on March 18, 2007, at 0:50:57
So Q, you basically want a partner who is both male and female all in one? How novel.
K
Posted by Ines on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:36
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by yxibow on March 17, 2007, at 11:04:05
Dunno if this is off topic, but I can think of many examples in the animal world where homosexuality is present. In many primate species sex is used as a bonding or conciliatory gesture between members of the same sex. Bonobos are notorious for this, with females engaging in more sexual behaviours with one another than they do with males. What I cannot think of is any examples of individuals being exclusively homosexual. A behaviour that evolved for a particular purpose (reproduction) is being used to serve a different purpose in a society (like being used to strengthen bonds between males or females in a group of primates). We cannot say that that's an unnatural behaviour when it's widespread in non human species and serves a useful purpose to them.... Also that surely goes some way towards explaining the origins of homosexual behaviour in humans? Of course that would only explain how that behaviour could have evolved in our ancestors the first place. How it develops in any one individual, or the role it plays in human society, is a completely different matter.
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