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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 19:04:51
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Impermanence, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 15:40:12
>> Well...all I can really say is that suicide can be inherently selfish. In the egocentric view, the world ceases to exist when one perishes.
Yes suicide is selfish, which is why I'm probably still here as I could never intentionally put my mother through that kind of pain, but thats also a form of selfishness masquerading as charity. Thinking I'm still here because I love my mother and would not want to hurt her, "I'm so great for sticking it out for somebody else", the ego is always there like a dark shadow. Every act is selfish if you get to the root of it. True selfless charity is virtually nonexistent. Even saints worked with a goal of heaven in mind lol, I'm such a cynic!!Something pulled me back from the brink of madness four times, love, fear, panic? who knows, I was drunk. Suicide attempts 90% of the time are a cry for help, it's unconsciously selfish. It's also a road to recovery, it's the end of the line and time to get off and try something different like accept help and let everybody know how bad you're feeling. But is suicide, when the indivudal with nobody left to take responsibility for selfish? Maybe, well it is thinking of yourself, you could be out helping others!! If the observer believes a certain moral is absolute and the indivudal does not have the right to end his or her own life on their own terms then the observer is too being selfish, subjecting the indivudal to his or her own dogma!!!! It's also selfish for a family member or friend to try to stop someone committing suicide, why should they have to suffer life to keep others happy?? The realm of selfishness goes on and on. Maybe selfishness is an illusion? after all it's all in our heads, a chemical reaction??
The idea of the world ceasing to exist after I went never entered my mind. It was I who would cease to exist.
>> I agree, but I do think that what society chooses to be right or wrong is not simply the result of whim and fancy. There must be inherent advantages for humans of all different cultures to develop similar beliefs about right and wrong. Now, whether or not these tendancies to conform are 'good' or 'bad' may depend on the particular environment at a particular time. The core beliefs about right and wrong seem consistent and longlasting, so perhaps they have been advantageous in the past...it remains to be seen whether or not they will in the future.Of course, for we all want an easy life at the end of the day. Nobody (well most) don't want to see children being hacked up for dog food like cattle now do they?? But is it right to hack up cattle?? Well I for one don't get emotionally attached to many cattle and I've been programmed to believe it's natural, so I have no problem eating steak and feeding them to my dog. Eating my dog is a disturbing thought to me but I'm sure they would have no problem sticking him in the wok in China. And try finding a burger in India LOL. Morals are relative to the minds and cultures that thought them up to make life eaiser for themselves but they are not absoulute. A suicide bomber in Palestine is a martyr, but in israel is an evil terrorist!!
>> I'm sorry you had to go through so much. Four attempts...that's rough. The game of life...I know what you mean...it seems meaningless at times. From the outside, everyone and everything seems the same...people living to work and working to live...choosing to conform because that is what is comforable. I think this is a misconception though, because we are too egocentric. If I could somehow walk in another person's shoes, I think I would find most people have wonderfully detailed and intricate live...truly unique.
We all carry the ego around. "Ego is a need, it's a social need, a social by-product. You have two centers. One center you come with, which is given by existence itself. That is the self. And the other center, which is created by the society, is the ego. It is a false thing and a very great trick. Through the ego society is controlling you. You have to behave in a certain way, because only then does the society appreciate you. You have to walk in a certain way, you have to laugh in a certain way, you have to follow certain manners, a morality, a code. Only then will the society appreciate you, and if it doesn't, your ego will be shaken. And when the ego is shaken, you don't know where you are, who you are.
The ego is not individual. Ego is a social phenomenon, it is society, its not you. But it gives you a function in the society, a hierarchy in the society. And if you remain satisfied with it, you will miss the whole opportunity of finding the self."
And that's why we are all so miserable and afrid. A world full of fear, and all negative emotion stems from fear. The ego comes continuously in conflict with others because every ego is so unconfident about itself. It has to be, its a false thing. Its ways are so subtle and cunning, you have to be very, very alert, only then will you see it. Don't try to be humble. Just try to see that all misery, all anguish comes through it. Meditation is a great aid to seeing through the illusions of the ego, it's not an easy job but when you start deprogramming your brain life just gets easier and easier. Thats why I feel like an outcast at times, I don't want to be part of the silly game. Push a button - get a reaction!!! It's so trivial. I like to just observe, let the chaos unfold before me while I smoke a spliff lol. When it comes to politics, war and capitalism gone insane though I tend to get heated!!!
>> I recently got into astronomy (sorry, no astrology for me!). I've always been interested in learning about the cosmos. Camping out in dark skies, checking out telescopes and gagets, looking at galaxies, star clusters, nebulas and meteors, wondering about superstring theory...it's awe inspiring.Wooops LOL, *ment astronomy*, thanks for pointing that out for me. I have a telescope, the creators on the moon look amazing. Its very hard to observe anything else with it, everythings just so far away lol. I'm fascinated with the universe. Did you ever see the movie K-Pax, Well Kevin Spacey's character has a theroy that the universe has been exploding and imploding on itself infinitely, I believe this to be true, which in turn supports the theory of the big bang. It makes a lot of sense when you think about. If super strings go beyond our universe and continue infinitly it would explain why the universe might strech out like a balloon and then is forced back on itself on the path to another big bang and on and on. Just like the breath of life inflating - deflating / exploding - imploding to a single point of enegery so powerful it has the force to give us the universe we know of. Maybe our whole universe is the size of a to particle, a quark inside an atom inside another universe. No matter how far out or in we look we find no end!!!! I believe there are hundreds of billions of universes never mind stars... It blows my mind sometimes thinking about it all, it can leave you feeling like a meaningless blip in a sea of neverending chaos but then why do I have a universe in my mind?? Perhaps there is an infinite plane of consciousness, our low level mutant brains somehow developed the ability to trap it and build an ego around it?? Maybe we are the universe evolving to observe itself??
>> It's difficult for me to grasp the whole spirituality concept. The universe is seemingly wonderfully complex, but for me it is enough to be able to explain parts of it. Meditation and stuff is good because it calms one down.Thats the beauty of spirituality, it's about unlearning, deprogramming your mind of all it's ever been programmed to believe. Going back to nothingness, your true self, perfection.
>> Time is relative. I don't think it matters whether or not I'm young or not. I'm just going to do whatever feels good at the moment. It is however, highly unlikely I'm going to end my life at this time because I live with my parents and I cannot get together my plans for a peaceful death.
Time is relative yes, but so is your anxiety and your pain and suffering and loneliness. Everything is always changing, as my name says; Impermanence!!! Nothing lasts, in two years you may be the happiest girl on the planet. I think it does matter that you're young, you will grow to appreacate the wonder that is life as you grow older. The things that bother you now could be like a minor inconvenience in a years time. Life may mean more to you in the future, you may make somebody happy, save a life. Bring more people into the world, discover a cure for aids. The possibilities are endless. You always have the option of suicide and death is inevitable so maybe hang on for a few more years. Why waste such a beautiful intelligent mind, you are one in 6.2 billion.
Anyway who am I to talk. Sorry about the long pointless rant lol!!!xxx
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 22:17:05
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 19:04:51
>I'm fascinated with the universe. Did you ever see the movie K-Pax, Well Kevin Spacey's character has a theroy that the universe has been exploding and imploding on itself infinitely, I believe this to be true, which in turn supports the theory of the big bang.
Yes. That is a proper scientific theory - I saw the movie too :-)
If that happens... If that happens... Then is it slightly different with each unfolding, or is it the same thing over and over again, do you suppose? Perhaps we have all been here. On Babble. Just like we are now. Many many times before. And we have had this discussion many many times before. And so forth... Or maybe I never even got to exist last time...
>Just like the breath of life inflating - deflating / exploding - imploding to a single point of enegery so powerful it has the force to give us the universe we know of. Maybe our whole universe is the size of a to particle, a quark inside an atom inside another universe. No matter how far out or in we look we find no end!!!! I believe there are hundreds of billions of universes never mind stars... It blows my mind sometimes thinking about it all, it can leave you feeling like a meaningless blip in a sea of neverending chaos but then why do I have a universe in my mind?? Perhaps there is an infinite plane of consciousness, our low level mutant brains somehow developed the ability to trap it and build an ego around it?? Maybe we are the universe evolving to observe itself??
:-)
Dennett reckons that we (conscious human beings) are the ecosystems / earths / universes nervous system. Its conscience. That we will (or at least we have the ability to) evolve to care for it.
Posted by Susan47 on March 10, 2005, at 10:38:36
In reply to Re: Why death is not an option for me » Impermanence, posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 22:17:05
Okay now this is getting incredibly interesting, girls. I'm not a brain as you two are but what beautiful theories to explore ... thinking about the universe is the one thing that doesn't make me feel alone. It's incredible, thinking too that our conscious may be part of an infinite sea of consciousness, consciousness in everything no matter how small, creations all; we part of it and it part of us, time; each unit of time broken up with a consciousness of its own, accessible at any time ... whew, Susan, take a valium girl you no longer make any sense..... at all ... where'd that moment go? Where in the universe is it stored, and how can I live in it forever???
Posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:27:22
In reply to Re: school matters, no death for now » alexandra_k, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 17:00:04
I went back to school late, finally got my BS when I was 36. And I wasn't the oldest one there by a long shot.
As long as you have breath it's not too late.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:32:14
In reply to If you're looking for geeks...... » Shy_Girl, posted by kid47 on March 9, 2005, at 15:08:07
Ah, but do you still have a slide rule and know how to use it?
Posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 1:06:51
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 13:13:10
Impermanence,I enjoyed reading your post, and was sorry to hear you've gone through suicide attempts and lots of other traumatic things in your life. I can't imagine how scary some of that must have been. I hope you are finding more peace now. When reading, I did feel there were a couple of comments that maybe could have been worded better, in light of the civility rules. For example…
<< The moral and religious issues as any intelligent rational people understand are nothing more than man made philosophies…….>>
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I don’t intend to infringe on your right to free speech. But when I read this, I felt a little demeaned just for not holding the same view as you. My question would be, are you saying that someone who *doesn’t* think moral and religious issues are, "nothing more than man made philosophies," is unintelligent and irrational? (My beliefs are completely different, yet most people who know me still seem to consider me fairly rational and intelligent. Not trying to be sarcastic, just reinforce my point.) Seems like this could be considered a little uncivil. But that's only my reaction, and I may have misinterpreted your meaning. If so, I apologize. Civility is, of course, ultimately Dr. Bob's call.
<<Over the years I've become very spiritually aware (and I don't mean religious, I have no time for that crap)>>
I have also become spiritually aware. In my case, it is in the context of a certain religious tradition. Therefore, I did feel put down when you described religion as "crap." To be blunt, this statement personally offended me. Perhaps you could have just said something like, "I’ve become very spiritually aware, but I don’t mean by following any particular religion or belief system, as none of those work for me." Or something clearer - that was just my clumsy attempt. Strong language, as long as it expresses your opinion without a sense of scorn, or "name-calling" that comes with a phrase like, "…I have no time for that crap," I think would be still be fine.
Wording things carefully here at Babble, especially when it comes to deeply personal issues such as religious beliefs, should allow everyone to have a voice without causing each other distress. Or at least minimize it as much as possible. Does that make sense?
<< I guess what I'm trying to say is it's O.K. to commit suicide, but it's crazy to do it so early in your life. Give yourself time, a lot of time before you make a decision that you can never ever go back on. Life may suck right now but you have to admit it's pretty incredible too. >>
No offense taken here, I just had questions. Since you told Shy Girl you think it’s "crazy" to commit suicide "so early in your life," at what point would it be okay? Is there a certain age, or maturity level, or something else, that makes it more acceptable to you? I noticed and loved how you appreciate all the awesome and, as you wrote, "incredible" stuff about life, so since life keeps changing for better and for worse, how would you know "when" was the right time to go ahead with suicide? I can’t work it out, but I thought that maybe you already had? I do not intend disrespect, just honestly thinking through what you wrote...
I posted in the spirit of trying to help us all stay within the civility guidelines. I expect the same scrutiny from you and everyone else. Including anything in this post, of course, that I wrote that may be a problem. I just think it's really important to keep trying, bit by bit, to understand each other better. Sometimes for me, that means speaking up when it's uncomfortable to do so. Respectfully, 10derHeart
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2005, at 1:42:39
In reply to Re: Civility and a question... » Impermanence, posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 1:06:51
Posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 2:10:41
In reply to Re: thanks for posting that (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2005, at 1:42:39
..thanks for posting that. Not to get too "admin" on this board, but I wasn't sure if that was the way to address my concern. Gave it a shot and apparently, it worked for you..whew ;-)
Hmm, I believe we are in the same time zone..get some sleep, Dr. B!
Posted by Impermanence on March 11, 2005, at 3:18:14
In reply to Re: Civility and a question... » Impermanence, posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 1:06:51
>>> You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I don’t intend to infringe on your right to free speech. But when I read this, I felt a little demeaned just for not holding the same view as you. My question would be, are you saying that someone who *doesn’t* think moral and religious issues are, "nothing more than man made philosophies," is unintelligent and irrational?Why would you feel demeaned over a strangers "opinion"? If your faith was strong enough woulden't you think I was the fool. I'm certainly NOT saying people who hold religious beliefs are unintelligent and irrational, thats called twisting words, and I hope you're not looking for a message board argument because I don't intend to have one. I did say "any intelligent rational people understand are nothing more than man made philosophies" and people who do think this way are usually intelligent rational people which is what I was saying. Thats not to say someone who holds a religious belief system is not intelligent. In my own personal life experence I have found that the type of person who questions things and walks through the fear into the unknown and decides not to comform to a train of thought is usually intelligent, logical, scientific and in many cases full of wisdom. But I don't have an opinion on those that decide to follow religion and I diden't say anything about anybody who did. I envy them getting comfort in a place "I feel" is an illusion. And I respect their choice. If I'm "certainly entitled to my opinion" as you said, and it was a post addressed to Shy_Girl, and I never said anything about people who hold religious beliefs then whats the problem. Why probe the mind of somebody who obviously has chosen Science and awareness over the bible for an opinion on people who comform to religion?? I don't need an opinion, I have better things to think about. Everybodys equal to me, I'm an *ss, you're an *ss, we are all a bunch of *sses just trying to figure things out in the best way we know how.
>>> I have also become spiritually aware. In my case, it is in the context of a certain religious tradition. Therefore, I did feel put down when you described religion as "crap." To be blunt, this statement personally offended me. Perhaps you could have just said something like, "I’ve become very spiritually aware, but I don’t mean by following any particular religion or belief system, as none of those work for me." Or something clearer - that was just my clumsy attempt. Strong language, as long as it expresses your opinion without a sense of scorn, or "name-calling" that comes with a phrase like, "…I have no time for that crap," I think would be still be fine.
Again MY OPINION, religion to me means nothing, to hold that idea is my prerogative and it should not offend you for it had no offencive remark towards you. Again I think you're looking for an argument and not truly offended. How could me saying "I" have no time for that crap be offencive to anybody. I'm not saying I have no time for any people or race. I just have no time for an idea, a philosophy. I never even named a religion.
>>> Wording things carefully here at Babble, especially when it comes to deeply personal issues such as religious beliefs, should allow everyone to have a voice without causing each other distress. Or at least minimize it as much as possible. Does that make sense?Reading things carefully helps too.
>>> No offense taken here, I just had questions. Since you told Shy Girl you think it’s "crazy" to commit suicide "so early in your life," at what point would it be okay? Is there a certain age, or maturity level, or something else, that makes it more acceptable to you?
Yes there is actually and I think you understood perfectly clear what I ment. I believe people should strive to a certen point of enlightenment or wisdom before they do anything drastic, if they get there they most likely won't want to end there own life anymore. It could take 30 years or a lifetime, some wake up by a few pages of a book, but I think it's important to see the bigger picture and understand your inner self better before you make a decision you can't go back on. As I also said "Don't make a decision with your EGO mind you can't go back on that your true self would never conceive of". Make an effort to let go of the ego and see with a clensed mind. If you still feel you want to end your life with a more aware mind then so be it. Thats the choice of the individual. I also think it's important to explore every avenue of treatment, and try it again and again. There are some people who never feel good, even with a mind full of wisdom, nobody left to take responsibility for and all treatments exhausted, in this case I believe it's O.K. to take your own life.
>>> I posted in the spirit of trying to help us all stay within the civility guidelines. I expect the same scrutiny from you and everyone else. Including anything in this post, of course, that I wrote that may be a problem. I just think it's really important to keep trying, bit by bit, to understand each other better. Sometimes for me, that means speaking up when it's uncomfortable to do so. Respectfully, 10derHeartI diden't say anything offensive about anybody and I won't apologize for anything I did say apart from using the word crap. I should have said I have no time for that train of thought. So for that I'm sorry. I mearly expressed how "I" feel about an idea. I think you should start taking life with a pinch of salt and maybe finding something to keep you busy would help you not to get so easily offended.
Respectfully,
Impermanence
Posted by kid47 on March 11, 2005, at 10:15:12
In reply to Re: geek squad » kid47, posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:32:14
Posted by Susan47 on March 11, 2005, at 10:39:06
In reply to Re: Civility and a question... » 10derHeart, posted by Impermanence on March 11, 2005, at 3:18:14
I believe you expressed your concerns very well. You are a thinking person, and I can certainly understand how someone would have felt upset by the way Impermanence posted, then and lately.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 11:55:25
In reply to a slide what? (nm) » AuntieMel, posted by kid47 on March 11, 2005, at 10:15:12
Posted by All Done on March 11, 2005, at 12:26:36
In reply to Re: a slide rule - hah! I out-geek ya! (nm) » kid47, posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 11:55:25
Don't let kid fool you, Auntie Mel.
I heard somewhere that he has a calculator watch he wears even though the calculator doesn't work anymore. He just thinks he looks cool.
Posted by kid47 on March 11, 2005, at 14:15:33
In reply to Re: a slide rule - hah! I out-geek ya! » AuntieMel, posted by All Done on March 11, 2005, at 12:26:36
I thought you weren't gonna tell anybody about that. Still got the watch. Still doesn't work right. I suppose I could scrape the $19.95 together and just buy a new one. Apparently I'm just too sentimental about the old one to retire it. Hope you're doing fine.
Peace
kid
Posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 14:35:30
In reply to Dear 10derheart, posted by Susan47 on March 11, 2005, at 10:39:06
Thanks, Susan. I tried to be reasonable, but maybe I failed. I don't know. Oh, well. Appreciate your post, dear.
Posted by kid47 on March 11, 2005, at 14:43:25
In reply to Re: a slide rule - hah! I out-geek ya! (nm) » kid47, posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 11:55:25
I'm old enough to remember the slide rule but young enough to have benefitted from a great little invention from Texas Instuments. It was the pocket engineering calculator. When they first came out, engineering students lined up for blocks outside Wallmart for the privilege of forking out about $300 to own one. By the time I needed one the price had dropped to around 10 bucks. Algorithms
schmalgorithms.Have a great day
kid
Posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 18:14:03
In reply to Re: a slide rule - hah! I out-geek ya! » AuntieMel, posted by kid47 on March 11, 2005, at 14:43:25
No - there wasn't any walmart then. You had to go to high end electronics stores to plunk down 300 for one that did what a two dollar one does now.
Posted by messadivoce on March 12, 2005, at 1:23:20
In reply to Re: Dear 10derheart » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 14:35:30
You are one of the most sane, reasonable, non-offensive, articulate, polite people I know. Don't let anyone make you doubt that. Hugs.
Voce
Posted by 10derHeart on March 12, 2005, at 2:13:14
In reply to Re: Dear 10derheart » 10derHeart, posted by messadivoce on March 12, 2005, at 1:23:20
Wow, what to do with so many compliments at 2 am? Appreciate you tons and tons. Same right back to you, too. BIG Hugs :-)))
Posted by gardenergirl on March 12, 2005, at 7:00:44
In reply to Re: Civility and a question... » 10derHeart, posted by Impermanence on March 11, 2005, at 3:18:14
>I think you should start taking life with a pinch of salt and maybe finding something to keep you busy would help you not to get so easily offended.
Everyone's threshold and subject matter for what offends differs. Please take care to follow the civility guidelines of the site.
Thanks,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 12, 2005, at 7:02:05
In reply to Re: Dear 10derheart » messadivoce, posted by 10derHeart on March 12, 2005, at 2:13:14
Posted by gardenergirl on March 12, 2005, at 7:04:13
In reply to Shhhh.... » All Done, posted by kid47 on March 11, 2005, at 14:15:33
Hubby has one. He also has my grandfather's slide rule and old engineering text books. He's a nerd, and I love him.
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 12, 2005, at 7:37:57
In reply to Please be supportive » Impermanence, posted by gardenergirl on March 12, 2005, at 7:00:44
> >I think you should start taking life with a pinch of salt and maybe finding something to keep you busy would help you not to get so easily offended.
>
> Everyone's threshold and subject matter for what offends differs. Please take care to follow the civility guidelines of the site.The last time you were blocked it was for 2 weeks, and this time I'm making it for 4.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on March 12, 2005, at 16:28:29
In reply to Re: Dear 10derheart--ditto what others said (nm), posted by gardenergirl on March 12, 2005, at 7:02:05
Posted by 10derHeart on March 12, 2005, at 16:56:24
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks » Impermanence, posted by Dr. Bob on March 12, 2005, at 7:37:57
Impermanence's block is unfortunate, and I take no pleasure in it. I guess it just is what it is here in our community. (Dr. B., I do appreciate you looking back in on this thread, though.)
From the bottom of my heart, I truly do think every single poster has something valuable to offer here. I often read a lot of the posts from those posters I tend to disagree with, just to keep an open mind and *hear* what they believe, too. I love the diversity of Babble. That's part of why I even bothered to post what I did. To maybe do it on behalf of others reading, who noticed the same things I did, but weren't comfortable trying to post any comments. Wish I could have figured a way to not have a block be the result....but...
..on the other hand, I can't take responsibility for the actions or words of another. It's really a full time time job just tending to that for myself :-) Just wanted to say that.
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