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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on August 20, 2005, at 21:48:14
In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 9:33:48
Sure it does... Sure it does... I shall try and draw a pic but who knows how it will go in the little txt box...
Dinah1--------------..................-----------
Dinah2.............................------..................
Dinah3....................-----........................Left to right is the progression of time.
----- means thats the bit of you in control.
The dots are just place holders for the silly txt box...
So Dinah1 then change in state to Dinah3 then change in state to Dinah2 then back to Dinah1.And think of Dinah1 Dinah2 etc as patterns of beliefs / desires / preferences / emotions / memories etc.
There can be more or less of a relation between Dinah1 Dinah2 Dinah3 etc.
But Dinah1 at those two points in time resembles more than Dinah1 and Dinah2.I think...
Under this model it would make sense that Dinah1 Dinah2 etc get to be Dinah in virtue of a bodily criterion of personal identity...
And Dinah1 gets to put in two distinct appearances in virtue of a psychological criterion of personal identity...
:-)
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 9:25:07
In reply to Re: I » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 20, 2005, at 21:48:14
Yes that's it exactly. And your comments on it have made me think.
Although I must confess that I don't think of Dinah 2 or Dinah 3 as being psychological entities. *That* I reserve for emotional and intellectual me. I guess it's because the mood states lack the thing that I consider to separate psychological entities, the sense of being an entity. The "I think, therefore I am."
And the "patterns of beliefs / desires / preferences / emotions / memories" are not as distinct. For example, feelings about the people in my immediate life. Emotional me always feels attached to my therapist and likes him. Rational me thinks he's a shallow moneyhungry boob. (Hmmm... maybe all of me thinks he's a boob, but in different senses of the word.) There are similar splits about other people in my life. And goals and priorities are fundamentally different. Ways of presenting myself are different. Views of the world are different.
The mood state differences are not as profound. But there is a bit of that, and I should consider the possibility of a lesser degree of dissociation. I know that everyone has mood states, and different states based on who you're with, and things like that...
To me, it seems like the disconnect between those states is a bit more profound for me. Not enough to impair my ability to function, but enough to make my life feel choppy and discontinuous and to shake my sense of who I am and what's important to me. It probably also gets in the way of my ability to work, since working is only important to me sometimes. I think working for Daddy counterbalanced that, because at the times when "working" wasn't important "Daddy" was.
I wonder how much of it is perception. Although perhaps a lot of this whole topic is based on perception.
Thanks, Alexandra.
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 9:26:01
In reply to » Dinah » I... » Dinah, posted by 64bowtie on August 20, 2005, at 0:49:11
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 9:26:43
In reply to Re: I, posted by kerria on August 19, 2005, at 0:42:29
Posted by alexandra_k on August 21, 2005, at 16:43:26
In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 9:25:07
Personal identity was a hot topic in the 60's. That means that the current academics (generally speaking) are sick to death of it because they were made to study it... They don't inflict it on us and so it is a topic that is currently being rediscovered by students...
Because it was the 60's philosophers were particularly hung up on necessary and sufficient conditions. What are the necessary and jointly sufficient conditions for personal identity over time?
There are two criterion that people have varying degrees of alliance to.
- bodily criterion. This is about the physical body. Here we want to talk about the same body persisting through time. So the Lewis stuff comes in with respect to time slices and relations between time slices. You can trace the bodys course through space/time.
- psychological criterion. This is about psychological factors such as memory, beliefs, desires, goals, preferences, etc. Here we want to talk about the same mind persisting through time. So the Lewis stuff comes in with respect to time slices and relations between time slices. You can trace the minds course through space/time.
Typically the psychological and bodily criterions are correlated. Philosophers thus devise all kinds of thought experiments so as to tease them apart and see which intuitively seems to take precedence for personal identity.
Thus if your body woke up tomorrow with my memories and my body woke up tomorrow with your memories we have to choose... 1) Dinah and a_k swapped bodies. 2) Dinah and a_k swapped minds. Which seems more intuitively correct?? Most want to say that it is better to say that we swapped bodies thus personal identity follows the psychological criterion of personal identity.
Then you can consider cases of amnesia. Suppose there was a radical break in psychological continuity and no break in bodily continuity. Same person or not? Here most want to say that the person has changed. But they remain the same person. What hangs it together is the bodily criterion of personal identity.
With respect to sameness over time...
There are problems with both the psychological and bodily criterions. Every cell in your body is replaced every 7 years or so. So we do not have the same body (when considered from the level of physics). Likewise beliefs, desires, preferences etc evolve over time.> Although I must confess that I don't think of Dinah 2 or Dinah 3 as being psychological entities. *That* I reserve for emotional and intellectual me. I guess it's because the mood states lack the thing that I consider to separate psychological entities, the sense of being an entity. The "I think, therefore I am."
Okay. Though I think 'mood states' is more psychological than bodily (with respect to the criterions)
> And the "patterns of beliefs / desires / preferences / emotions / memories" are not as distinct.Yeah. Thats okay. I guess in some people the Dinah1 Dinah2 bits can be quite distinct. In other people the Dinah1 Dinah2 bits can be less distinct. In some people it may be pointless to make the distinction. Or perhaps the distinction can be reserved for different contexts. Dinah at church, Dinah on the boards, Dinah with her family etc.
>For example, feelings about the people in my immediate life. Emotional me always feels attached to my therapist and likes him. Rational me thinks he's a shallow moneyhungry boob. (Hmmm... maybe all of me thinks he's a boob, but in different senses of the word.) There are similar splits about other people in my life. And goals and priorities are fundamentally different. Ways of presenting myself are different. Views of the world are different.
So feelings. And beliefs. 'I believe that he's a boob'. And desires. I guess you have different action urges when the different feelings / beliefs are at hand.
> The mood state differences are not as profound. But there is a bit of that, and I should consider the possibility of a lesser degree of dissociation. I know that everyone has mood states, and different states based on who you're with, and things like that...Yeah. Context dependent. Thats important. And mood dependent too...
> To me, it seems like the disconnect between those states is a bit more profound for me. Not enough to impair my ability to function,
Actually, if you didn't exhibit a degree of flexability / change in role in different contexts then you would be dysfunctional. The person who can't distinguish between pub behaviour and church behaviour may have problems in life...
> I wonder how much of it is perception. Although perhaps a lot of this whole topic is based on perception.
Sure. Perception. Beliefs about the world / oneself. Feelings about the world / oneself.
I'm really interested in Perception, thinking (beliefs) emotions, sensations, desires, goals, preferences, and the way in which they all combine so as to produce behaviour...
Then interesting issues about how the distinction between those terms is / is not mirrored in the brain. AKA: whether there really are (in the brain) such things as perceptions, beliefs etc.
Hoping to do my PhD on that actually...
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on August 21, 2005, at 16:49:21
In reply to Re: I » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 21, 2005, at 16:43:26
The Ship of Thesus
(from memory so probably a bit inaccurate)
There is a ship. The ship of Thesus :-)
The ship of Thesus was blessed by the Gods.
It has legal rights to dock at a particular port.The ship needs some repairs. They replace some of the boards. Over time... They replace every componant of the ship.
Is the ship they end up with still the ship of Thesus? The one that was blessed by the gods? The one with docking rights? Physically there isn't a single componant in common between the original ship of thesus and the ship in its present state...
Lets now say that every board, every componant that was replaced was saved... And then lets say that they are put together again. The ship is reassembled
Is this ship the ship of Thesus? The one that was blessed by the gods? The one with docking rights?
Its a little bit like 'how many grains of sand makes a heap?'
(I'm tempted to say 3 but I guess that defeats the purpose...)The notion is that a difference in degree constitutes a difference in kind.
Necessary and sufficient condition that.
Hrm.
Necessary and sufficient conditions need to be suitably abstract is all....But with respect to which ship is the real ship of Thesus... I guess most people think there isn't really an answer to that...
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 17:46:52
In reply to Re: I, posted by alexandra_k on August 21, 2005, at 16:49:21
There is a less intellectual version of that for my pop culture mind. :)
Harry Anderson used to do a juggling act with an axe. And he'd hold up the axe and say "This is George Washington's axe. The head's been replaced. And the body's been replaced. But it occupies the same space."
I used quotation marks, but I'm paraphrasing from memory and I'm sure it was funnier when he said it. :)
That sounds like an interesting idea for your doctorate.
I find it all very confusing. I just wish I *felt* more continuous.
Or even broken up between Board Dinah and Work Dinah, etc. Breaking up by mood state is way more confusing.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 22, 2005, at 5:22:15
In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 17:46:52
> Harry Anderson used to do a juggling act with an axe. And he'd hold up the axe and say "This is George Washington's axe. The head's been replaced. And the body's been replaced. But it occupies the same space."
Yeah, thats it.
And if you put the old head and the old body together then you have the same problem: which one is Washington's axe?> That sounds like an interesting idea for your doctorate.
Thanks. I guess I'll have to narrow it down one way or the other. But I'm more interested in the general view of listing the kinds of cognitive factors that are relevant (how much emotions can be reduced to desires for example) and considering the ways in which they interact.
Trouble is finding them in the brain.
I dunno. I expect I'll adopt a topic really.
I'd like to do emotions, though.
'Cause I don't understand them very well.
> I find it all very confusing. I just wish I *felt* more continuous.Yeah. I don't know what to say. I don't really feel discontinuous except for the missing time. And really regretting stuff. That I've said and done. Different emotional states. Maybe it is discontinuity. I don't know. I didn't even know that emotions were the problem. I just knew I hurt. I didn't know it was my emotions.
> Or even broken up between Board Dinah and Work Dinah, etc. Breaking up by mood state is way more confusing.Yeah.
I wish I didn't have emotions.
The felt quality at any rate.
But I guess we need emotions.
I wish mine were muted.
Theres gotta be a medication for that...
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2005, at 19:37:32
In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 17:46:52
My husband informs me that I attributed the quote incorrectly. It was Michael Davis, not Harry Anderson.
My husband is great at that stuff.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 22, 2005, at 20:01:47
In reply to Attribution correction » Dinah, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2005, at 19:37:32
never heard of either of them :-)
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 17:50:07
In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 9:25:07
I forgot to edit this out before handing him a sheaf of posts that included this. He laughed and said his feelings weren't hurt and it wasn't anything I hadn't already told him. I told him I was *quite* certain that I had never told him that. And he snorted with laughter and said perhaps not in these words.
> Emotional me always feels attached to my therapist and likes him. Rational me thinks he's a shallow moneyhungry boob. (Hmmm... maybe all of me thinks he's a boob, but in different senses of the word.)
Posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 18:02:48
In reply to OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 17:50:07
I'm sorry Dinah, but I had to laugh, it just so reminds me of the sort of thing I'd do. Glad he took it so well.
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23
In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah, posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 18:02:48
Well, it *was* sort of funny. At least since he wasn't mortally offended. He was reading this stuff with no more reaction than a comment that I'd make a good existentialist (which I don't think is true) when he suddenly burst out laughing. When I asked what on earth was so funny, he quoted that. I was mortified of course.
That's what comes from hurriedly printing out posts at 1:30 am the night before a 9 am therapy session.
Posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 18:57:41
In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23
ROFL, sounds exactly how I packed to go to NZ. Started at 11:30pm finished around 1:30am to be out the door at 4:30am.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2005, at 19:36:45
In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23
lol! well, i snorted when i read it so i can see how he found it funny. and imagining your mortified expression just makes the whole thing even funnier.
because of course he knows you love him really :-)
Posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2005, at 19:38:05
In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23
Of course, there was some unconscious REASON that you left that in there... Any guesses to why you WANTED him to see it?
lol
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 20:44:12
In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2005, at 19:38:05
I'd be positive I unconsciously left it in to hurt him. But since it was last night, I think it was just that I didn't remember that I had put that in that post.
I gotta admit, it was pretty cool of him.
But now I hope that it *did* hurt him a bit (or a bit more than a bit), and that so did my post to Laura Beane that I read him quite deliberately.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:16:50
In reply to If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 20:44:12
Maybe...
You are a bit upset about his not being upset... In the sense that if he really cared then he would feel upset that you (partly) think of him in that way
???
But... You have been seeing him for a long time. And I think he knows how important he is to you really.
Maybe... You are feeling numb / removed because that is a defence against something... Some other feeling...
I dunno.
Somebody said something to you somewhere and I thought yes! That sounds very plausible indeed. I'll see if I can find it...
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:17:58
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:16:50
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050813/msgs/545035.html
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 16:30:34
In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:17:58
It might be true that if I opened up a can of worms it would serve to draw me back in. But I don't think that it makes it inevitable now to do the hard work. My therapist will never push me. We'll just sit and chat forever. I'm certainly no more likely to tackle the big issues, and probably less.
I guess it's the feeling that he's indifferent and unengaged that's bothering me. You know, like he should say that he doesn't want me to grow away from him. Either that or that he seems so passive and ineffectual.
But I've always cared more than he does. And he's always been rather passive. That's what I like about him.
Other than completely forgetting the phone calls, I don't know what's up.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 17:29:14
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 16:30:34
> It might be true that if I opened up a can of worms it would serve to draw me back in.
It might be true that if you opened a can of worms you would make headway on some issues ;-)
> My therapist will never push me. We'll just sit and chat forever.
Yeah... But is that really what you want / what would be best for you?
> I guess it's the feeling that he's indifferent and unengaged that's bothering me. You know, like he should say that he doesn't want me to grow away from him. Either that or that he seems so passive and ineffectual.Hmm. With respect to 'I don't want you to grow away from me', I don't know that it would be very professional for him to say that...
> But I've always cared more than he does. And he's always been rather passive. That's what I like about him.:-)
> Other than completely forgetting the phone calls, I don't know what's up.Maybe its about the 'do you see me as a person or just another client' issue...
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 18:59:20
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 17:29:14
I know he sees me as more than just another client. I really do.
And I know he wouldn't or couldn't say that he doesn't want me to grow and leave him.
But I still want him to say it.
I think we all do, don't we? At least in theory. We don't want it to be ok with them for us to leave, or even to partially leave.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 18:59:20
> I know he sees me as more than just another client. I really do.
> And I know he wouldn't or couldn't say that he doesn't want me to grow and leave him.> But I still want him to say it.
> I think we all do, don't we? At least in theory. We don't want it to be ok with them for us to leave, or even to partially leave.But then we also want them to want us to get well enough and involved enough with people outside therapy so that we don't need them anymore...
I dunno... Haven't been in a good therapy relationship for long enough to get that stuff going on...
It sounds to me... And maybe I'm way off... Like a bit of a boundary thing. But then IMO the client vs person issue is a bit of a boundary thing as well...
And while we may think we want to cross that boundary we'd probably be mortified (or at the very least very hurt in the long run) if that boundary was crossed...
Because therapy is about YOU.
Your responses and your reactions and its not supposed to be about him.But you kind of do want it to be about him.
But then you probably don't want it to be really...And so it is complicated.
What would it mean to you if he didn't mind so very much?
What would it mean to you if he did?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:30:12
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08
> But then we also want them to want us to get well enough and involved enough with people outside therapy so that we don't need them anymore...
I just mean that I think that is why we go. Because we want to get better. And along the way we get a bit confused about what getting better means, and what we need to get better...
But that if they lose sight of that... Well... Then we really are wasting our money on them.
I mean... Sure its nice to think that they will be a little sad when we go. And that they will miss us. But OF COURSE they are going to when you have been such a big part of their life for so long.
I don't know.
And I do get that reason and emotion are often opposed...
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08
Welllllll.... Ok it gets sticky here.
He does care if I see him. He would dislike it if I decreased my frequency, both because he cares about me and because he likes my fees. But he cares enough about me to have thought of me when negotiating for his new job, and tried to work it out so that he could continue to see me twice a week. And he'd be really sad if I quit completely I think.
Not that he'd say it like that, of course. But I know him well enough to know he'd be good and angry.
So it's not really that he wouldn't mind seeing me leave, which is probably why I'm mentally punishing him by thinking of not going.
And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never. The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions. So if I'm not terribly intense, and need him less, and keep coming in twice a week that's probably his ideal. And since he never felt the intensity, he doesn't mind losing it, or not losing it really because he never had it. But he doesn't care that I lose it.
But it's important to me, and I think that ought to be reason enough for it to be important to him. There are some things that are important to me that just aren't important to him. He won't help me get back the daydreams. He won't help me get back this. And he doesn't even care enough to remember what I said about it.
It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about, and he's not willing to listen and help me recover the things I care about. He'll say he doesn't know how, but that's cr*p because there are plenty of things he doesn't know how to do but he still helps me. It's just the things I care about and he doesn't that he doesn't help me with.
He likes me well enough. He'd miss me if I were gone. And he cares about me. But if we disagree about what's important, he just tunes me out and becomes as dense as a post.
And I think they should matter if for no other reason than that they matter to me.
Although in general, if I didn't already know he wouldn't really like me to get all better and not need him, I'd be really really sad. Except if it's in his best interests for me not to see him anymore, like he's leaving town. Then he would want me to not need him.
Ok, there's been some boundary crossing over the years. But we've been together for ten years. And all the important boundaries are still in place. He's very firm about those. But the ones about caring about me as a person, not just as a client, and having mutual commitment, well, those are a bit breached. But they're stupid to begin with. Everyone deserves a therapist who cares about them as a person and would miss them if they left.
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