![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 78. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 7:07:21
Dr. Hsiung,
In regards to your reminder policy, there is 1 outstanding notification from me.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 7:11:43
In reply to Scott's reminder to Dr. Hsiung, posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 7:07:21
> Dr. Hsiung,
>
> In regards to your reminder policy, there is 1 outstanding notification from me.Okay. Perhaps "outstanding" is an exaggeration.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 16, 2013, at 13:01:12
In reply to Re: Scott's reminder to Dr. Hsiung, posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 7:11:43
> > In regards to your reminder policy, there is 1 outstanding notification from me.
>
> Okay. Perhaps "outstanding" is an exaggeration.I see two, the second of which I took as retracting the first. Did I misunderstand?
Bob
Posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 16:09:28
In reply to Re: Scott's reminder to Dr. Hsiung, posted by Dr. Bob on July 16, 2013, at 13:01:12
> > > In regards to your reminder policy, there is 1 outstanding notification from me.
> >
> > Okay. Perhaps "outstanding" is an exaggeration.
>
> I see two, the second of which I took as retracting the first. Did I misunderstand?
>
> Bob
Yes. You are right. I forgot about that one. I believe there were a few more notifications, two of which you were kind enough to respond to. The others remain "outstanding". I took this to mean that:A. You did not see them.
B. You did see them, but did not have the time and energy to respond.
C. You did see them, but did not find sufficient grounds to act on them.
D. You did see them, but don't like me.
E. None of the above.
F. All of the above.Ultimately, I do not feel that it is reasonable to expect you to respond to all of the notifications I may send. I am surprised that you have the time to respond to any of them. I imagine that you have your hands full, what with real life and all.
I think it is worth noting that the current volume of posting is very low. I don't recall it being this low since I first arrived here. I am concerned that too great a percentage of board space is filled with the postings and associated dramas surrounding the behavior of a single person. It really is ugly and distracting. I would not want this person to be blocked for posting dissenting opinions - a consensus sometimes starts with the opinions of a single person. However, I feel that the verbiage used in his posts to announce his opinions is uncivil as I interpret the FAQ of this website. I believe that the drama is pernicious upon the health of Psycho-Babble.
If you do not warn or block Lou Pilder from posting in an uncivil manner, it is likely that I will continue to post here. There just won't be anyone else for me to post to. Unfortunately, I believe that you have painted yourself into a corner by not blocking him sooner. You have effectively set a new set of precedents as to how this website will operate.
- Scott
Posted by 10derheart on July 16, 2013, at 16:28:51
In reply to Re: Scott's reminder to Dr. Hsiung, posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 16:09:28
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 17, 2013, at 3:06:18
In reply to Re: Scott's reminder to Dr. Hsiung, posted by SLS on July 16, 2013, at 16:09:28
> Yes. You are right. I forgot about that one. I believe there were a few more notifications, two of which you were kind enough to respond to. The others remain "outstanding".
Were they this year? I've managed to find the energy to persevere this year, but if I missed something, please feel free to notify me again.
> Ultimately, I do not feel that it is reasonable to expect you to respond to all of the notifications I may send. I am surprised that you have the time to respond to any of them. I imagine that you have your hands full, what with real life and all.
You have your hands full with real life, too. I'm hoping that if I'm able to find the time and energy to moderate, you'll be able to find the time and energy to help keep the boards alive and supportive.
> I think it is worth noting that the current volume of posting is very low. I don't recall it being this low since I first arrived here. I am concerned that too great a percentage of board space is filled with the postings and associated dramas surrounding the behavior of a single person. It really is ugly and distracting. I would not want this person to be blocked for posting dissenting opinions - a consensus sometimes starts with the opinions of a single person. However, I feel that the verbiage used in his posts to announce his opinions is uncivil as I interpret the FAQ of this website. I believe that the drama is pernicious upon the health of Psycho-Babble.
>
> If you do not warn or block Lou Pilder from posting in an uncivil manner, it is likely that I will continue to post here. There just won't be anyone else for me to post to. Unfortunately, I believe that you have painted yourself into a corner by not blocking him sooner. You have effectively set a new set of precedents as to how this website will operate.1. Please feel free to notify me of anything you consider uncivil.
2. It's true, I'm adjusting the model. The precedents I'd like to promote, which I thought helped laurah, are to:
a. focus on supporting the poster asking for help
b. keep the subject line focused on the poster asking for help
c. counter negative information with positive information
d. be civil
e. work together as a team3. It occurs to me that you and Lou may have something in common: anxiety about Babble. Lou seemed worried about abuse of power, and you seem worried about everyone leaving. There might be anxiety about me, too. Am I going to abuse my power? Am I going to leave?
Bob
Posted by Toph on July 17, 2013, at 9:33:26
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Dr. Bob on July 17, 2013, at 3:06:18
> There might be anxiety about me, too. Am I going to abuse my power? Am I going to leave?
>
> BobBabble is your creation. You have been presiding over it for years. If I may ask you Bob, do you have anxiety about the dwindling participation on your site? Do you have an explanation for this reduction in participation? Are you going to leave?
Posted by Phillipa on July 17, 2013, at 9:50:28
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Toph on July 17, 2013, at 9:33:26
It just doesn't sound like the Bob I remember? Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on July 17, 2013, at 11:57:33
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Phillipa on July 17, 2013, at 9:50:28
Does to me. Completely, I'm afraid.
Posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 3:21:16
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Dr. Bob on July 17, 2013, at 3:06:18
> 3. It occurs to me that you and Lou may have something in common: anxiety about Babble. Lou seemed worried about abuse of power, and you seem worried about everyone leaving. There might be anxiety about me, too. Am I going to abuse my power? Am I going to leave?
Your power is limited. You have the power to reduce posting activity rapidly and to shut the board down entirely. What you don't seem to have the power to do is to increase posting activity with the same rapidity with which you can decrease it. It takes years to build up a following. It takes only a few days to chase everyone away. Once enough people leave, there is nothing to return to should someone contemplate posting here again. People looking for education and support are likely to find it elsewhere, as Psycho-Babble now has only Lou Pilder and discussions about Lou Pilder to offer.
I'll let you work out the calculus, but there appears to be a threshold of posting below which Psycho-Babble can no longer sustain itself. If this were a business venture, you will have co-engineered its bankruptcy.
It burns my *ss that Lou Pilder has won.
Thank you.
This place has become a true travesty. Even I'm smiling.
Nice experiment.
- Scott
Posted by Willful on July 18, 2013, at 10:20:19
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 3:21:16
What strikes me more and more is how much Bob and Lou are fundamentally alike.
Ive always thought that Lou was a person whose behavior could be explained as the symptoms of a disease of persecution, and that he therefore wasn't entirely accountable for his actions. I now have a somewhat different view, and hold him more and more responsible, despite his disease. But his actions are notable for being completely inflexible, unyielding and guided by some sort of lodestar of complete belief in his own rightness and excellence.
And I see Bob as quite the same. He has always, in every "model" of Babble, shown himself to be inflexible, unyielding and deaf to any and all entreaties , and proofs that his system is at best having detrimental effects, causing pain, and creating havoc among the people who are this place. No matter who has put in front of his evidence of the unfairness, harmfulness, and disorganization sown by his ideas, he has shown himself to be an unmoved mover-- one who hears, feels and sees nothing. And the place and the people suffer as a result.
It strikes me as odd that Bob does not offer each model of babble as an experiment, an untested answer to the question of how to form a republic on the internet, where people will be indeed more supportive, and that will be more of a refuge, than their lives are at any moment. And instead of gathering evidence as to the curative powers of his model-- its being in fact a refuge, rather than in Bob's head only, he hoves to his course through hxxx and high water-- and Babble becomes an emptier and less vital place in his wake.
Why he has suddenly risen from the dead to shepherd us once again, is beyond me. Why and how the algorithm changes and then becomes yet again unbending, is beyond me. And why frankly, in this incarnation, Bob prefers again to decimate the board, why he so appreciates Lou's company--is also beyond me.
But that he does is undeniable.
Posted by Twinleaf on July 18, 2013, at 11:16:17
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Willful on July 18, 2013, at 10:20:19
In a post above, I have tried to express the same thoughts. It is so distressing to have this degree of communication difficulty with Dr. Bob coming up over and over again.
Trying to think of things from his point of view, I think he would like to have good relationships with us - ones which are rewarding and which makes the work of moderating seem worthwhile. I think he also would like to feel understood and appreciated. But I do feel that he misses almost every chance for this by being so inflexible, and appearing to have very limited empathy or respect for the various viewpoints in the community.
I think that if he were able to lead Babble with flexibility, empathy and respect for each poster, there are no problems which we couldn't solve. This would require flexibility on our parts also, but I think that is there.
Posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 13:25:07
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Willful on July 18, 2013, at 10:20:19
> What strikes me more and more is how much Bob and Lou are fundamentally alike.
I guess we all have our theories as to what goes on here. I have several. It is funny that you should compare Lou Pilder to Dr. Hsiung with respect to the characteristics that they might have in common. I have noted similarities for quite some time, and recently commented on this with a friend of mine. They may indeed be kindred spirits.
Lou Pilder is capable of adhering to a set of rules. I agree that he is accountable for his behavior. Dr. Hsiung is capable of enforcing a set of rules. He is also accountable for Lou Pilder's behavior.
This stuff is getting very, very old. Very.
I wish I weren't in such need for distraction. I am still partial to this site's format, but I won't remain here if this crap continues much longer. This is not a threat.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2013, at 20:07:12
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » Willful, posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 13:25:07
One & the same person. Been saying this for a while now. Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on July 18, 2013, at 21:05:11
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2013, at 20:07:12
You're kidding, right?
Posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 21:30:58
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2013, at 20:07:12
> One & the same person. Been saying this for a while now. Phillipa
This was not one of my theories.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2013, at 22:45:44
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » Phillipa, posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 21:30:58
Strike one what's your theory? Seriously. Seems like a good mystery now. P
Posted by jane d on July 19, 2013, at 1:28:29
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on July 18, 2013, at 3:21:16
> as Psycho-Babble now has only Lou Pilder and discussions about Lou Pilder to offer.
I don't think that's completely true. It does seem to be ONE of the favorite topics these days and I wish it wasn't. But then I wasn't thrilled when every other thread seemed to be about neurontin either (remember that?).
> It burns my *ss that Lou Pilder has won.
It really sounds as though you have perhaps accidentally slipped into viewing this as a competition which one of you has to win. Or even can win. And if Lou wins, you lose? That just makes no sense to me. Lou's posts have nothing to do with you and don't reflect on you in any way. Yours don't have much to do with him. I worry that you have started thinking about this in a way that is causing you pain and that may force you to take positions it could be hard to retreat from.
Please believe me that I am not trying to insult you. You're free to disagree with everything I say but don't waste time looking for hidden meanings. This is one of those nights where the words just won't come smoothly.
Posted by SLS on July 19, 2013, at 7:27:53
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » SLS, posted by jane d on July 19, 2013, at 1:28:29
> > as Psycho-Babble now has only Lou Pilder and discussions about Lou Pilder to offer.
> I don't think that's completely true. It does seem to be ONE of the favorite topics these days and I wish it wasn't. But then I wasn't thrilled when every other thread seemed to be about neurontin either (remember that?).Neurontin? Okay.
> > It burns my *ss that Lou Pilder has won.
> It really sounds as though you have perhaps accidentally slipped into viewing this as a competition which one of you has to win.It is not so much a competition of egos as it is a battle to keep Psycho-Babble inviting and relevant.
Lou Pilder wins when people leave Psycho-Babble as the result of his posts, the discussions about his posting, and the absence of acts by the moderator to enforce those codified rules that were designed to provide for safety, support, and education.
> And if Lou wins, you lose?
We all lose. That's the thing. We all lose.
> That just makes no sense to me. Lou's posts have nothing to do with you
Why do you say this?
> and don't reflect on you in any way.
This is mostly true, I guess, but we don't exist in a vacuum.
> Yours don't have much to do with him. I worry that you have started thinking about this in a way that is causing you pain
I am more interested in reducing pain. Yes, it does pain me when people have panic attacks as the direct result of Lou Pilder's posts of falsehoods and hyperbole. It also pains me to ponder the possibility that posting activity has dropped off significantly as Lou Pilder has been allowed to post exaggerations, over-generalizations, and accusations to a greater degree and frequency.
> and that may force you to take positions it could be hard to retreat from.
This is a good point. I try to acknowledge my mistakes and apologize for them when applicable. I'm not always successful.
What do you think of Lou Pilder's posts?
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on July 19, 2013, at 20:13:32
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » jane d, posted by SLS on July 19, 2013, at 7:27:53
>What do you think of Lou Pilder's posts?
The only time the content has ever angered or hurt me was when he mentioned (the Biblical prohibition on) sorcerers, and for me that covered the whole gamut of native American cultures and was difficult to see outside a framework of American exceptionalism, which was odd coming from Lou. Major genocide when it comes to the Americas and Australia.
When some distressed mother (for example) asks what to do with her sick child I feel embarrassed to see so little tact and sensitivity and so much self absorption.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 20, 2013, at 2:31:32
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Toph on July 17, 2013, at 9:33:26
> If I may ask you Bob, do you have anxiety about the dwindling participation on your site? Do you have an explanation for this reduction in participation? Are you going to leave?
I do feel anxious about the current level of participation. I don't think there's one explanation. I do think part of it is my own participation had dwindled.
I'm not planning to leave. But I've left before. But I've always come back.
And if my math is right, the 8 of you on this thread have been coming back an average of 9.2 years each. Which IMO is pretty amazing. I bet if other posters could benefit from all that experience, participation would grow.
Bob
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2013, at 2:53:39
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me, posted by Dr. Bob on July 20, 2013, at 2:31:32
> And if my math is right, the 8 of you on this thread have been coming back an average of 9.2 years each.
You sure do like your numbers.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by 10derheart on July 20, 2013, at 13:00:34
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on July 20, 2013, at 2:53:39
My thought exactly.
Posted by jane d on July 21, 2013, at 1:19:24
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » jane d, posted by SLS on July 19, 2013, at 7:27:53
> It is not so much a competition of egos as it is a battle to keep Psycho-Babble inviting and relevant.
I don't think a battle of any kind does that.
> I am more interested in reducing pain. Yes, it does pain me when people have panic attacks as the direct result of Lou Pilder's posts of falsehoods and hyperbole.So if they have a panic attack on reading something you think is true that's ok? There's a problem with judging things by people's emotional response to them since we all respond to different things.
>It also pains me to ponder the possibility that posting activity has dropped off significantly as Lou Pilder has been allowed to post exaggerations, over-generalizations, and accusations to a greater degree and frequency.
>I think here Lou is being made the classical scapegoat. The internet has changed over the years. I've seen posting drop off in any number of forums with all different forms of moderation. I remember the excitement I felt when I discovered babble. I think it was largely because I'd never seen anything at all like it before. But I don't think it's possible for anyone to feel that way about babble now even though I wish they could. Even if they are new here they aren't new to the internet and the idea of having information and human contact at their fingertips.
> > and that may force you to take positions it could be hard to retreat from.
>
> This is a good point. I try to acknowledge my mistakes and apologize for them when applicable. I'm not always successful.You do well at it.
>
> What do you think of Lou Pilder's posts?
>It really shouldn't matter what I personally think of Lou's posts. As it happens he is one of several people who's posts I rarely read. I have decided that they are unlikely to contain any information of interest to me and they annoy me so I tend to skip them. I also think that everybody else should be able to choose for themselves whether to read or not read them. I do believe that even new posters here are sophisticated enough to understand where Lou is coming from - he's very upfront about it. They will seek out other points of view if that is what they want. Those views are already well represented all over this board.
Posted by SLS on July 21, 2013, at 6:52:24
In reply to Re: anxiety about Babble and me » SLS, posted by jane d on July 21, 2013, at 1:19:24
Just a few things.
> There's a problem with judging things by people's emotional response to them since we all respond to different things.
Does censorship have a place?
> > It also pains me to ponder the possibility that posting activity has dropped off significantly as Lou Pilder has been allowed to post exaggerations, over-generalizations, and accusations to a greater degree and frequency.
> I think here Lou is being made the classical scapegoat.The scapegoat explanation has become the default argument against investigating cause-and-effect and social responsibility regarding the posting behaviors of Lou Pilder. I was under the impression that scapegoating involves intent; to knowingly blame or punish someone for the acts of others. What is it about my treatment of Lou Pilder that would lead you to characterize it as scapegoating rather than being an inquiry into cause-and-effect and the enforcement of website rules of conduct?
> > What do you think of Lou Pilder's posts?
> It really shouldn't matter what I personally think of Lou's posts.I think it matters. It helps to understand posting dynamics. Why would you not want to volunteer this information? Is each man an island?
> As it happens he is one of several people who's posts I rarely read. I have decided that they are unlikely to contain any information of interest to me and they annoy me so I tend to skip them.
Do you think that there should be unqualified freedom of speech here?
> I also think that everybody else should be able to choose for themselves whether to read or not read them.
How would one come to decide such a thing if they had not yet read them?
You make a great deal of sense.
Let me see if I can make some adjustments.
Thanks.
I think Dr. Bob should either delete the specifications of overgeneralization and exaggeration as sanctionable content in his FAQ or explain why Lou Pilder's posts fail to qualify for such sanctions.
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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