![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 56 to 80 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2009, at 12:30:23
In reply to Lou's request-refucon » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on July 7, 2009, at 21:50:38
Fayroe also not clear on your post. Could you word it different or clarify what you mean. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 15:21:11
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2009, at 12:13:22
> > > I guess if this situation occurs again I will risk a PBC and ask directly for an apology or retraction of the statement which would be an intervention.
> >
> > asking for an apology or retraction could be ... helpful. What about posting an example request?
>
> To me, this is encouraging posters to tolerate incivility towards them, and applying subtle pressure on them to do so.I did encourage Poet to explore her plan. It wasn't my plan. But I guess encouragement could be experienced as pressure. Poet, please feel free not to post an example request.
Incivility in some form is probably inevitable. Even if we approved messages before they were posted, we might consider something civil and others might not. So the question is how to respond. Wouldn't ignoring it actually be more like tolerating it?
> I know the pressure, subtle and overt, applied by peers and by authority figures for the innocent to work things out with the uncivil. I find that I cannot support that in any way shape or form.
>
> I understand the value of asking posters to work things out between themselves in cases of squabbles or disagreements. But not in cases like this.How are cases like this different? Or, when should everyone just wait for the fire department? Being able to work things out with someone who's uncivil could be a useful skill to develop.
Bob
Posted by Timne on July 9, 2009, at 15:35:14
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 15:21:11
> Incivility in some form is probably inevitable. Even if we approved messages before they were posted, we might consider something civil and others might not. So the question is how to respond. Wouldn't ignoring it actually be more like tolerating it?
>
> BobCould that be formally classified as a false dilemma? Are there other options, such as deleting it?
I'm reminded of the old practice of putting heads on pikes to remind newcomers not to do things that might result in their head being left on a pike. An image comes to mind of a front yard along a busy sidewalk, covered in dog droppings and maybe copies of citations -- or pooper-scoop bags, left there as the owners way of telling dog owners not to let their dogs act that way.
If poop-bags are left in a dog park where there are not stools left lying around, the hint might strongly compel dog owners to use the bags. If the bags are left in a park littered with dung, broken windows theory suggests other dog owners will ignore the bags and leave their dog's leavings unattended.
Broken windows theory does not involve leaving windows broken and placing court records of convicted vandals alongside broken windows. Broken windows theory says keep a clean house and guests will start to clean up after themselves.
Posted by Sigismund on July 9, 2009, at 16:50:07
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 11:52:49
>Lou took a risk and approached the cat. And the cat was civil, but stayed in the tree. It would distress me to have to take the cat back to the pound. Does anybody else feel willing and able to help the cat?
Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
Just trying to keep up here.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 17:06:15
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Sigismund on July 9, 2009, at 16:50:07
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 17:15:18
In reply to Lou's request-refucon » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on July 7, 2009, at 21:50:38
well, wait...I can see it is possible for Dr. Bob to feel accused or put down by use of the phrase:
"empty apologies." I can see that. If my apologies were described that way, I might feel hurt. But maybe he could just say so, to Pat, and ask for a rephrase? Or maybe that's not even the phrase? Or the reason behind the pound comment? Dr. Bob lets an awful lot "go" when it's written about him personally, in the interst of allowing posters to vent and to communicate with him - or something like that (I'm expressiong that rationale very badly) So when it may be about him, I just observe, as I have not really known or understood where he draws his boundaries.
I'm a pretty big proponent of plain language. I am fairly easily confused. I dunno. Maybe he will return to explain.
*posting as a poster. Don't get involved administratively on threads where Dr. Bob is posting
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 17:45:18
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Sigismund on July 9, 2009, at 16:50:07
> Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
> Just trying to keep up here.Yes. Sorry if I tried to cover too much in that post,
Bob
--
> > I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> > I am unsure as to what the criteria that you use to determine if an apology is empty.
> > As to a refusal to consider, my undersyanding of what it means to consider something may be different than yours. Could you post here how you determine if one refuses to consider?
> >
> > Lou
>
> > No, thanks, Lou.
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> In this case, Lou took a risk and approached the cat. And the cat was civil, but stayed in the tree. It would distress me to have to take the cat back to the pound. Does anybody else feel willing and able to help the cat?
>
> Lou, thank you for trying to help. Fayeroe, thank you for being civil to Lou. Whatever happens, I hope you choose to remain part of this terrific, though sometimes stormy, community.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 19:28:27
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 17:45:18
Sigi said:
> > Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
> > Just trying to keep up here.Dr. Bob said:
> Yes.
For what, exactly? For clarity, please, Dr.Bob. Are we supposed to be guessing that some part of what Pat posted could be uncivil, by virtue of the fact Lou asked a question about it? Is that what everyone else gets and I don't? Is that why you thanked him. Sorry to be this dumb and probably annoying, but I really, really don't understand {shakes head} I'm exhausted from guessing.
*I* can speculate, and I have in another post, but that just confuses the thread and issues further, IMO.
And if you don't know quite how to say that, without actually taking - or seeming to take - admin action, or appearing accusing and uncivil yourself (pretend with me, and assume the role of an ordinary poster) well, that's the dilemma regular posters also face (second part, not necessarily the 1st part, unless they are deputies, trying to post as posters) when contemplating "helping' as you have been suggesting.
It is nowhere near easy.
Posted by henrietta on July 9, 2009, at 20:36:02
In reply to Re: the length » verne, posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2009, at 23:35:20
I feel accused and put down by the suggestion that it is my fault (as a member of said community) that Verne got blocked. PBC, Bob.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 1:47:42
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 19:28:27
> Are we supposed to be guessing that some part of what Pat posted could be uncivil, by virtue of the fact Lou asked a question about it?
Sorry, I intended to make it clear by quoting it:
> > I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 1:47:42
Yes, I saw you quoted it before in the very long post.
What I was trying to say was that you suddenly (apparently) casting Pat as the cat (not even sure if that was correct) and then mentioning the cat needing help to get out of the tree did *not* translate into - "I see potential/actual uncivil words here......" etc. Not even close. You had just said the cat remained civil....so I wasn't even thinking about civility anymore, and didn't know what you were even talking about.
I still find this sort of thing unecessarily winding and requiring too much concentration to follow.
I'm too dense to understand this style, or the need for it, I guess.
I won't ask any more questions, but I do wonder if Fayeroe understands she is the "cat" that might need to do something...
(I actually can't believe I just wrote that sentence)
I mean, I have been acquainted with you around the topic of civil or uncivil posts for a long time, and I was baffled.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:21:40
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 3:37:11
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
> What I was trying to say was that you suddenly (apparently) casting Pat as the cat (not even sure if that was correct) and then mentioning the cat needing help to get out of the tree did *not* translate into - "I see potential/actual uncivil words here......" etc. Not even close. You had just said the cat remained civil....so I wasn't even thinking about civility anymore, and didn't know what you were even talking about.
Ah, thanks for explaining. Maybe I got carried away with Seldom's metaphor. Pat was civil to Lou, but not to me.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 10, 2009, at 8:11:03
In reply to Re: the length » Dr. Bob, posted by henrietta on July 9, 2009, at 20:36:02
> I feel accused and put down by the suggestion that it is my fault (as a member of said community) that Verne got blocked. PBC, Bob.
henrietta,
You wrote,[...I feel xxx and yyy zzzz by...]
If this feeling that you describe here is from reading a post from here, could you email me with the URL? If you could then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on July 10, 2009, at 19:43:10
In reply to Lou's request-2pstn? » henrietta, posted by Lou Pilder on July 10, 2009, at 8:11:03
The cat is probably thinking something like
'I regret that I mistook an full regret for an empty apology', or
'Help, I'm in a tree and won't get down because I'm scared I'll be raped by the psychiatrist who is standing below me with a net.'
Posted by rskontos on July 11, 2009, at 0:52:44
In reply to Re: trying to get a Pat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 3:37:11
>>Pat was civil to Lou, but not to me>>
But how was she uncivil she said what I see is empty apologies. She was saying how she felt. How is that uncivil.
If she feels it sounded empty then maybe it did to her. Why should thatnot warrant more explanation from you since it was her perception and that is how she expressed it.
Shakes my head. I think I feel that only Dr. Bob can correctly interpret the civility guidelines.
later this is too weird for me. I still feel on administration we should be able to post views using I feel I think etc statements.
It is obvious we can't. I need to stop coming here. It gets me too upset.
rsk
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2009, at 10:25:19
In reply to Re: trying to get a Pat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on July 11, 2009, at 0:52:44
> But how was she uncivil she said what I see is empty apologies. She was saying how she felt.
How would you feel if someone said she felt your apologies were empty? I don't consider those true I-statements, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.htmlThanks,
Bob
Posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: Dr Bob » Poet, posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 9:49:38
Hi Dinah,
Thank you. I was hurt by the remarks made about me and I am far from civil in real life, but I forced myself to just ignore it and I'm happy to see you agreed that I did the right thing.
Poet
Posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 11:52:49
I was hurt by what you posted about me and would appreciate it if you would apologize for what you said. Thank You.
Poet
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2009, at 10:36:47
In reply to Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
> I was hurt by what you posted about me and would appreciate it if you would apologize for what you said. Thank You.
I like that, thank you. Does anybody else have any comments? Or alternative suggestions?
Bob
Posted by obsidian on July 13, 2009, at 18:52:49
In reply to Dr-Bob is the Chestmaster, no one wins! (nm), posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 9, 2009, at 0:50:30
I don't know about that...I could just decide not to play
I don't see him as that machiavellian, but as a student of human nature and interaction
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2009, at 19:04:48
In reply to Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
> I was hurt by what you posted about me and would appreciate it if you would apologize for what you said. Thank You.
>
> Poet~ ~ Dear Poet,
If a poet is someone who is good with words, then you sure are one! I think that's a great sentence above.
Thanks, Kath
Posted by BayLeaf on July 13, 2009, at 19:26:03
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request, posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2009, at 10:36:47
And the purpose is to prevent being blocked, right?
Cuz I can see this being abused, misused, or overused. You know we will!
There are some SUPER sensitive people here. I might post something that is civil per guidelines. But someone might find it hurt their feelings. So they may request that I apologize to them.
Now, *I'm* gunna feel bad...or even mad!! So, then I'm gunna request they apologize for making me feel bad, implying my post was uncivil, etc,....repeat cycle.
Will you end up making a new rule about unwarranted requests for apologies?? Add that into your block equation!
It's all a bit nutty to me.
Bay
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2009, at 20:07:58
In reply to Re: Example Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by BayLeaf on July 13, 2009, at 19:26:03
Something like:
I felt hurt by ".................."
Did you mean to hurt me? ! ! ! ! ! !
Although I guess people might just say "No."
I don't know. It's pretty complex when it gets down to people's feelings.
I've given a bit more thought to the apology part.
I've never liked the idea of a forced apology. I never made my kids apologize. Because what if someone ISN'T sorry. Why should they say sorry. I guess they could say they're sorry the person's feelings were hurt. But maybe they aren't!!!Yikes.
Kath
Posted by Deneb on July 13, 2009, at 20:23:44
In reply to Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
Oooh, Dr. Bob, how about:
I felt hurt after I read your post. An apology would make me feel better.
This one is all about me, it doesn't say anything bad about the other person. I think I get "I statements". Right?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.