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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 244 to 268 of 304. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2009, at 2:01:57
In reply to Bob's attention span » fayeroe, posted by fayeroe on April 17, 2009, at 10:20:14
> Bob, you have the attention span of a gnat
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
duration of previous block: 2 weeks
period of time since previous block: 4 weeks
severity: 2 (default)
block length = 3.70 rounded = 4 weeks
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2009, at 2:06:59
In reply to I'm a complete Piece of Something » myco, posted by verne on April 23, 2009, at 1:18:37
> Hmmmm, well, sometimes, in the name of chartitablness and acceptance, we can *first* warn, immediately B4 punish(like 24 hrs) THEN if no satisfaction, perhaps a SHORT block.
>
> blocking posters, effectively banishing them for WEEKS, MONTHS at a time isn't exactly accepting behaviour....I expect it FEELS more like 'F off you disgusting person'... :-(
>
> Less shooting is good BUT, one thing that seems intrinsic to therapy, is that when there ARE breakdowns, some of the greatest gains are made by REPAIR of the relationship. If you block for weeks at a time, the window of opportunity for repair is lost.
> Conflict AND a chance for repair = growth...
>
> Dude, you think we not care bout Pat??? Of COURSE we do, DUUUUUHHHHHH.
> I also know, that she is a smart , intelligent woman, who knows the rules here, who knows what is what.
> She is NOT STUPID.
> Sh*t.
> This where you really don't get it do you?
>
> Everyboddys got their 'stuff', you too Bob, thats OK, but manoman, you surely make me nuts from time to time.
> LOL! Mebbe cuz I care hey?
>
> Muffled> > The "herd" here seems to be willing to let Fayeroe fall overboard. But maybe people are trying to support her behind the scenes. I hope so.
>
> This baffles me. How is Fayeroe falling overboard?
>
> rsk> helping others "rephrase" or whatever is not "supporting" them--it's supporting you and your current policies.
>
> raisinb> If you really cared for your black sister you would tell her to stand the hell up and give the white man his seat.
>
> Can't you see how f*ck*ng offensive that is?
>
> alexandra_kThis isn't therapy, but repair still would be nice. But the more conflict there's been, the harder it is. But it's not impossible even after weeks or months -- or years.
Blocks are about posts, not posters, though I understand posters may still take them personally. How short should blocks be? Around a month maximum was suggested before.
I saw being blocked as like falling overboard. I see how apologizing or rephrasing would support my civility policy (and repair), but not how it would support my blocking policy. Is civility or blocking the issue? I haven't meant to imply that anyone doesn't care about Fayeroe. I did think helping her stay on board was one way to show caring. Would you want your sister to go to jail?
Muffled, thanks for caring.
--
> > helping them avoid a block afterwards just means one fewer missing loved one.
>
> Why did you ask us so many times to get Verne and Jade to apologize to you? After the fact..
>
> FayeroeSo we wouldn't lose more loved ones.
> Capricious blocks (zazenducke) inevitably lead to resentment.
>
> SigismundCaprice is in the eye of the beholder. Resentment may lead to uncivil posts that lead to blocks.
> For reasons not clear to me, some people get the chance to apologise and some do not.
>
> SigismundEveryone always has the chance to apologize, and to encourage others to apologize, right away. I thought more opportunity to try that out might help, so I've been giving posters extra time when it's involved me lately.
> I think jade thought quite hard and tried to come up with as close to an aplogy as she could muster, though it perhaps was more an explanation.
>
> SigismundI haven't meant to imply that she didn't try her best. Maybe she could've used some advice on form, after all.
> I *do* think that sometimes posters are fully cognizant of the results of their posts, and would not consider other posters urging them to apologize as supportive. I think that posters are trying to convey that to Dr. Bob right now. I do understand that a poster has the right to choose to protest what they see as unjust laws by choosing to do what they are aware will result in a block.
>
> DinahThat's a good point, it could be another way of being true to oneself. A form of civil disobedience. But when people are civilly disobedient, they accept the consequences.
> verne is still posting here? lol damn
>
> mycoand myco too? lol damn
Bob
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:19:16
In reply to The problem with Peacemakers, posted by verne on April 23, 2009, at 17:24:41
True enough, Verne, as I've often discovered to my dismay.
"the wisdom to know the difference" is the part of the Serenity Prayer I find myself saying most often.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:19:59
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 23, 2009, at 17:13:59
Thanks, Raisinb. I never quite know if I should get involved.
Posted by raisinb on April 24, 2009, at 17:06:24
In reply to Re: an opportunity » raisinb, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:19:59
With all this going on, I appreciate how difficult the job must be! Keep on truckin' ;)
Posted by BayLeaf on April 24, 2009, at 22:35:01
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks » fayeroe, posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2009, at 2:01:57
1) why can u not handle being called a gnat? how 'bout a gnewt? just curious...do you have an issue with insects? or the silent g?
2) Is 1 month now the new black? (max?)
Posted by Sigismund on April 26, 2009, at 23:56:38
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks » Dr. Bob, posted by BayLeaf on April 24, 2009, at 22:35:01
Pat must understand the maths.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2009, at 9:27:02
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks » Dr. Bob, posted by BayLeaf on April 24, 2009, at 22:35:01
> 1) why can u not handle being called a gnat? ... do you have an issue with insects?
Should people here be expected to handle being called names?
Some people here might like to be able to call others names. But some people here would prefer not to be called names. We can't have it both ways. My opinion is that it'll be a more supportive community if people don't call each other names. Even though it can be therapeutic for individuals to express themselves.
> 2) Is 1 month now the new black? (max?)
There weren't any replies when I asked for input, so no, nothing's changed.
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on April 30, 2009, at 14:57:10
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2009, at 9:27:02
> > 2) Is 1 month now the new black? (max?)
> There weren't any replies when I asked for input, so no, nothing's changed.And of course the number of posters who have requested this in a number of posts over the years, well, their views are irrelevant because they don't jump to post the same old same old to a particular thread that Bob shows an interest in probably only precisely because people have given up saying anything at all considering it basically to be a waste of breath.
Posted by verne on April 30, 2009, at 18:18:33
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by alexandra_k on April 30, 2009, at 14:57:10
I agree with Alex K. Look in the archives.
There are pages of posts about blocks and the "penal colony".
Dr Bob may have "modernized" but let's not remember the fallen posters in more primitive times. They sang a true and honest tune, maybe danced a little, and said that blocks were excessive.
I think Dr Bob tired of his own game, or dance number, and almost overnight, lightened up.
Dr Bob has changed and we posters must now catch up - upgrade. This is Dr Bob 2.0
Verne
Posted by BayLeaf on April 30, 2009, at 19:02:07
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2009, at 9:27:02
> 2) Is 1 month now the new black? (max?)
>>There weren't any replies when I asked for input, so no, nothing's changed.
>>Bob
Aren't you embarrased to post something like that??
You have read hundreds of posts asking for a reduction. We may now just feel too tired of typing the same request over and over to have responded to whatever post you are referring to above. I don't recall reading it.
FOR THE RECORD, I REQUEST THAT THE MAXIMUM BANISHMENT BE ONE MONTH.
Bay
Posted by BayLeaf on April 30, 2009, at 19:07:41
In reply to One Month Max, posted by BayLeaf on April 30, 2009, at 19:02:07
> 2) Is 1 month now the new black? (max?)
>>There weren't any replies when I asked for input, so no, nothing's changed.
>>Bob
It's this kind of behavior that causes people to want to call you insect names. It seems intended to provoke.
Why would you provoke vulnerable people?..people who could become upset, possibly act out, and be banished by you?
It's all very interesting.
Posted by verne on April 30, 2009, at 20:20:14
In reply to Dr Bob 2.0, posted by verne on April 30, 2009, at 18:18:33
Dr Bob is all about "power". He's sort of playing with it now but in the end it really comes back to him.
He pretends to give some of it away, causing even more confusion.
He tries to get down home and go gang, street, or whatever culture required.
Other times it's clinical and distant.
In the end, he's pulling the strings. I think most posters are starting to get that and no longer participate. Sure, many, never venture into adminstrative lands, but the majority knows.
Now PsychoBabble is a ghostland. No one ventures to say the least bit anything, the least bit chancy. Only Larry Hoover, like a steadfast soldier, a lighthouse, carries on.
Sorry to invoke your name Larry but you're all that keeps this site afloat. You know all that chemistry and basically everything else - and, I'm not being sarcastic.
No offense to you Dr Bob, but your feelings shouldn't come before the hundreds you've hurt.
Verne
Posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2009, at 11:50:24
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2009, at 9:27:02
> nothing's changed.
Thanks for clearing that up.
'What doesn't kill us makes us stronger'
I guess Bob's decided that its okay that Babble dies
I mean its been dying before his eyesPeople spoke with their feet
After they became too injured politely knocking
Then repeatedly bashing 'gainst the brick wall
Posted by Sigismund on May 3, 2009, at 15:41:51
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2009, at 11:50:24
There should be blocks for direct personal attacks and also to avoid really negative spirals. Maximum 1 month.
I think (reading between the lines) that Bob realises that the benefits of enforced civility may not have been worth driving so many people away.
Posted by muffled on May 3, 2009, at 23:54:36
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by Sigismund on May 3, 2009, at 15:41:51
but really, I vote for only a week.
Unless it really bad and ongoing, but then it should be dealt with privately.
And only for major breaches that go on and on. Not just for one offs.
My thots.
Proly stupid anyhow.
Many very good points made here above.
Great thinking.
Very on target to my way of thinking.
Best wishes to all.
Posted by verne on May 4, 2009, at 0:42:05
In reply to Re: an issue with insects, posted by Sigismund on May 3, 2009, at 15:41:51
I think it's against Dr Bob's nature to get into the business of forgiving too much. He would rather error on the punitive side.
Perhaps, this site isn't able to handle the administrative job of weekly punishment. Yet, the site's commander seems willing to debate the issue for months and years.
Perhaps, even from an administrative level, site-running level, even a week block would be feasible. Once we get past that, why not even less time for blocks?
A "week" is arbitrary but better than a year. Why not block someone for a few DAYS. Since you can't come up with a new calendar, a week then.
Yet a year, 6-9 months blocks: that's medevial - and a little, maybe alot, sadistic. Not sure it happens anywhere else on the web. (Elsewhere, when you violate the terms of the site's agreement, you can be "banned" which is far less manipulative) It's clear. You violate the TOA and you're gone.
There's no "fanfare", no parade. No debate about the length of blocks. Here, every warning and block is a spectacule, inviting argument and debate. Why "announce" blocks anyway. Just to create the riot?
Other sites handle dysfunction so much better. Dissent isn't new. Many made the same arguments about this site 5 years ago. Many, bashed their heads against the wall (thanks Ak) and experienced true futility, finally leaving for good.
Civility doesn't have to be about shaming and big annoucements on the length of the blocks for those who stray.
In truth, the block system isn't even civil. Imagine being thrown in an Iranian prison for a year? Here the prisoners are voluntary patients with emotional or psych issues.
Verne
Posted by verne on May 4, 2009, at 5:16:36
In reply to Weak at Most, posted by verne on May 4, 2009, at 0:42:05
Before I leave for awhile these are my four favorite videos. Sure I like Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen but these are my fav vids.
http://www.mtv.com/videos/the-cranberries/8350/zombie.jhtml#artist=1251
http://www.mtv.com/videos/brandi-carlile/141620/the-story.jhtml#artist=1774595
best song and video ever: http://www.mtv.com/videos/michelle-branch/16547/all-you-wanted.jhtml#artist=1164813
http://www.mtv.com/videos/crash-test-dummies/55296/mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm.jhtml
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 5, 2009, at 3:42:49
In reply to Weak at Most, posted by verne on May 4, 2009, at 0:42:05
> I think Dr Bob tired of his own game, or dance number, and almost overnight, lightened up.
>
> Dr Bob has changed and we posters must now catch up - upgrade. This is Dr Bob 2.0
>
> VerneHow did I change? I gave others more time to apologize to me. Some did, some didn't. Those that did avoided being blocked. But the "apology box" isn't new.
> ONE MONTH.
> 1 month.
> a week.
> a week
Thanks for your input. I'll discuss this with the deputies.
> I think it's against Dr Bob's nature to get into the business of forgiving too much. He would rather error on the punitive side.
>
> a year, 6-9 months blocks: that's medevial - and a little, maybe alot, sadistic. Not sure it happens anywhere else on the web. (Elsewhere, when you violate the terms of the site's agreement, you can be "banned" which is far less manipulative) It's clear. You violate the TOA and you're gone.
>
> VerneBut even a cap of a year is a lot more forgiving than being banned forever!
I may or may not change the cap. But I'm not planning on changing what's considered civil here. I let some incivility to others go while I focused on incivility to me recently. But that doesn't mean the rules have changed. The deputies and I will continue to enforce the civility policies.
> Now PsychoBabble is a ghostland. No one ventures to say the least bit anything, the least bit chancy.
>
> VerneI disagree, five people ventured to be uncivil to me recently.
> People spoke with their feet
>
> After they became too injured politely knocking
> Then repeatedly bashing 'gainst the brick wall
>
> alexandra_kMaybe what people said with their feet was they preferred peace to shooting and bashing.
What about Poster 2.0?
Showing other posters how they might interpret things more charitably, encouraging them to apologize, suggesting they not address those they can't get along with, and helping them avoid being blocked -- all would mean more peace.
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 11:46:39
In reply to Re: posters must now upgrade, posted by Dr. Bob on May 5, 2009, at 3:42:49
> Maybe what people said with their feet was they preferred peace to shooting and bashing.I suppose one could simply disregard what the posters actually said about their motivation in favor of Bob's favorite theory.
And the wheels go round.
Goodbye
Posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 12:05:54
In reply to Re: posters must now upgrade, posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 11:46:39
You got your upgrade already. The posters you carefully selected for by way of blocking the other ones. Maybe it comes as a surprise to you that people would actually leave after being blocked by you. Or maybe that was the whole point. You got your oligarchy of rulers carefully selected because they agree enough with you to feel that they can in good conscience both divine what you would do were you here and implement it. You got your small boards as people left. Maybe you prefer things this way. I guess it must feel kinda cool to only allow whoever you want on your boards on your boards and have a handy excuse to get rid of other ones (their fault of course). Bet you can't find a poster still posting on your boards (including you) who hasn't said something comparable to what another poster was blocked for. You get to choose. How... Nice for you. Or something.
Nothing has changed really. I guess accepting that... Well a number of posters have explicitly stated that that is why they move on. Something about the draconian blocking system and your just making the wheels go round when people offer concrete suggestions of how you can have a more humane system. Professionals told you it was harmful and arbitrary but really none of that matters so long as Bob gets to do what Bob wants to do.
Nothing has changed. You got that right.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 12:06:25
In reply to Re: posters must now upgrade, posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 12:05:54
Much more of an upgrade and you really would be just playing with yourself
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2009, at 12:42:56
In reply to Re: posters must now upgrade, posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 12:05:54
Mind you, that's just the posters who *say* why they leave. Not the ones who just leave.
Posters quit posting because they have hurt feelings too. They just don't come to Admin and say so. In fact, posters who just quit posting because they don't feel welcome, or get their feelings hurt, likely outnumber the ones who leave because of Bob.
And people might not start posting if a board seems contentious.
I've always been very strong in arguing against "disappearing" posts. But after hanging out on a few (non mental health related) sites, I have grown to see the upside of it. The site stays more on topic. For those who are very regular posters, it might be way more upsetting. But for those who are considering posting, it might be encouraging.
Posted by raisinb on May 5, 2009, at 13:46:56
In reply to There are pros and cons, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2009, at 12:42:56
I think what Dinah says here is important. Sometimes I hang out on the Craigslist psychology board. The things people say to each other on there demonstrate what can happen if civility rules don't exist.
Again, if the rules are inconsistently enforced, that's different.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 5, 2009, at 20:50:21
In reply to Re: posters must now upgrade, posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2009, at 12:05:54
> a number of posters have explicitly stated that that is why they move on. Something about the draconian blocking system and your just making the wheels go round when people offer concrete suggestions of how you can have a more humane system.
I'm interested in suggestions. Two heads are better than one. But when it comes to the system, I have more power and posters have less, change can be slow, and you don't always get what you want:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090302/msgs/893534.html
Or, posters can be the change they wish to see. Do they wish to see fewer blocks? Posters have the power to help other posters avoid them. Friends don't let friends get blocked.
Bob
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