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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 76 to 100 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2008, at 9:18:31
In reply to Re: as things stand now...Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 2, 2008, at 9:17:04
> If you would like to have deputies who can rise to broader, more flexible leadership positions when the need arises, it looks as though you will need to train them for that.
That makes sense. But what exactly would the goal of the training be? What would you like to see leaders do?
Also, it's perfectly reasonable to depend on the deputies to perform deputy functions, but regular posters are also able to calm, offer support and reassurance, address anger, etc. It may even be more effective coming from them.
Bob
Posted by twinleaf on April 3, 2008, at 17:45:29
In reply to Re: as things stand now, posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2008, at 9:18:31
I'm not sure training a deputy to be a leader in stressful times is something one can actually do. Perhaps the best way to approach it would be to make sure that posters trained as deputies know that they may be called upon to exercise leadership functions in rare times when a crisis occurs and you are not here. How each person does that is going to be unique to them- the sum of their knowledge, their intuition, their personal sense of what is needed. It will never be, and shouldn't be, the same for any two deputies.
I actually very much wanted to help in the recent crisis, and felt that I had the skills to do so, but I stopped myself, because i thought it would be presumptuous and disrespectful of me to take on any function which seemed (to me) to belong to the deputies!
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2008, at 22:38:50
In reply to Re: as things stand now...deputy roles, posted by twinleaf on April 3, 2008, at 17:45:29
> I'm not sure training a deputy to be a leader in stressful times is something one can actually do. Perhaps the best way to approach it would be to make sure that posters trained as deputies know that they may be called upon to exercise leadership functions in rare times when a crisis occurs and you are not here. How each person does that is going to be unique to them- the sum of their knowledge, their intuition, their personal sense of what is needed. It will never be, and shouldn't be, the same for any two deputies.
I agree, making sure they know about the possibility makes sense. As does giving them the freedom to respond the way they think is best.
> I actually very much wanted to help in the recent crisis, and felt that I had the skills to do so, but I stopped myself, because i thought it would be presumptuous and disrespectful of me to take on any function which seemed (to me) to belong to the deputies!
That's an interesting dynamic. I wonder if a perception of me as not being open to help -- or as myself having skills, but not helping -- may have contributed.
Bob
Posted by twinleaf on April 7, 2008, at 19:08:20
In reply to Re: skills to help, posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2008, at 22:38:50
No, I don't think that was playing a role. When you were able to start posting again, it was clear how much you wanted board members to join you in finding good solutions. It looked as though a number of posters were still angry and did not feel like replying. That seems to have eased up a lot more recently.
I just assumed that the deputies would jump in to help- perhaps having discussions with one another to develop the broadest and most helpful strategies to support and calm people. Instead, it seemed as though the deputies became part of the problem, supporting only one another and like-minded posters, and, I believe, using PCBs and blocks more liberally for posters whom they did not know particularly well and/or who held opposing views.I think everyone is aware that several people who were treated in this way are no longer posting. It would be great if the deputies were prepared to offer broad-based, impartial leadership when it is needed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2008, at 11:18:28
In reply to an interesting dynamic....... » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 7, 2008, at 19:08:20
> > I wonder if a perception of me as not being open to help -- or as myself having skills, but not helping -- may have contributed.
>
> No, I don't think that was playing a role. When you were able to start posting again, it was clear how much you wanted board members to join you in finding good solutions.When I started posting again, yes, but perhaps not when I wasn't?
> I just assumed that the deputies would jump in to help- perhaps having discussions with one another to develop the broadest and most helpful strategies to support and calm people. ... It would be great if the deputies were prepared to offer broad-based, impartial leadership when it is needed.
Maybe deputies could have responded differently, and maybe posters could have, too. Leadership is important, and so is followership.
Bob
Posted by muffled on April 21, 2008, at 11:57:57
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2008, at 11:18:28
I think its more for me bout old tapes in my head. Bout parent thats not available, that makes kid feel abandoneded and afraid. Old stuff. No longer valid, but stupidly still there.
But I can feel abandoned and feel its not safe, cuz 'parent' is unreliable and not a source of safety, but a source of fear.
Therefore, I leave the 'home' cuz I am afraid. There is not safety there.
The parent from time to time and can be nice, or parent can be unfeeling and hurt other siblings too. One never knows.
One never knows if parent is gonna be good or bad at any given moment. Confusion.
Too hard to tolerate.
Can't stand to see siblings hurt.
Thats my analogy for me.
Proly dumb, but best as I can do.
Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
Bob is an unreliable parent to this poster whose chose to be vulnerable here. This poster never know if he gonna hurt her or others. This poster not understand at all, and so is scared. This poster never know who parent is gonna be, good or bad? Present, or off in they own head, therefore 'away'.
M
Posted by fayeroe on April 21, 2008, at 12:14:15
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2008, at 11:18:28
> > > I wonder if a perception of me as not being open to help -- or as myself having skills, but not helping -- may have contributed.
> >
> > No, I don't think that was playing a role. When you were able to start posting again, it was clear how much you wanted board members to join you in finding good solutions.
>
> When I started posting again, yes, but perhaps not when I wasn't?
>
> > I just assumed that the deputies would jump in to help- perhaps having discussions with one another to develop the broadest and most helpful strategies to support and calm people. ... It would be great if the deputies were prepared to offer broad-based, impartial leadership when it is needed.
>
> Maybe deputies could have responded differently, and maybe posters could have, too. Leadership is important, and so is followership.
>
> Bobfollowers with mental health issues frequently find leadership difficult at best. setting up a website for the people here carries responsibilities that you chose for yourself. leadership, understanding, safety and continuity. we're reading the ads that you sell space for here, isn't that helpful for you, Bob?
i'm going for discussion here, not discension. want to be very clear about that up front.
leadership is learned by example. if a person isn't taught that as a child, it's pretty hard to learn how to embrace it as a grownup.
my feeling is the followers are just that......some just aren't here for pitching in more than they can. as muffled put it so well, safety is very important.
putting oneself out front can be disastrous for many.
pat
p.s. the people who voiced their fear, anger and confusion during the last occurence were doing the best that they could do then.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2008, at 2:53:33
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 21, 2008, at 12:14:15
> I think its more for me bout old tapes in my head. Bout parent thats not available, that makes kid feel abandoneded and afraid. Old stuff. No longer valid, but stupidly still there.
> One never knows if parent is gonna be good or bad at any given moment. Confusion.
> Too hard to tolerate.
> Thats my analogy for me.
> Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
>
> MThanks for sharing that, it's a great example of how old tapes can be triggered by a current situation.
To continue with your analogy, could other siblings help, too?
--
> we're reading the ads that you sell space for here, isn't that helpful for you, Bob?
>
> i'm going for discussion here, not discension. want to be very clear about that up front.
>
> my feeling is the followers are just that......some just aren't here for pitching in more than they can.
>
> putting oneself out front can be disastrous for many.
>
> pat
>
> p.s. the people who voiced their fear, anger and confusion during the last occurence were doing the best that they could do then.I think discussion, constructive criticism, and reading ads are all examples of good followership. Anything else?
How could putting oneself out front be disastrous?
None of us should be expected to do more than we can. But it might help if we just did things differently.
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on April 23, 2008, at 7:06:06
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2008, at 2:53:33
Bob said "How could putting oneself out front be disastrous?"
You are the psychiatrist, you tell me.
Posted by muffled on April 23, 2008, at 8:59:25
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2008, at 2:53:33
> > I think its more for me bout old tapes in my head. Bout parent thats not available, that makes kid feel abandoneded and afraid. Old stuff. No longer valid, but stupidly still there.
> > One never knows if parent is gonna be good or bad at any given moment. Confusion.
> > Too hard to tolerate.
> > Thats my analogy for me.
> > Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
> >
> > M
>
> Thanks for sharing that, it's a great example of how old tapes can be triggered by a current situation.
>
> To continue with your analogy, could other siblings help, too?*up to a point only...and they cannot take away the fear of the parent.
> > we're reading the ads that you sell space for here, isn't that helpful for you, Bob?
> >
> > i'm going for discussion here, not discension. want to be very clear about that up front.
> >
> > my feeling is the followers are just that......some just aren't here for pitching in more than they can.
> >
> > putting oneself out front can be disastrous for many.
> >
> > pat
> >
> > p.s. the people who voiced their fear, anger and confusion during the last occurence were doing the best that they could do then.
>
> I think discussion, constructive criticism, and reading ads are all examples of good followership. Anything else?
>
> How could putting oneself out front be disastrous?
>
> None of us should be expected to do more than we can. But it might help if we just did things differently.
>
> Bob*I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult. I not read ads either.
So mebbe I a bad "follower", HA!
I do not follow.
Why you ask questions anyways?
It makes you more "here" Bob.
Yo dude and thats probelematic right?
Thot you was gonna stay away.
Let us be our own people.
I was on another site, they delete all records once in awhile. I like that.
M
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2008, at 9:33:49
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by muffled on April 23, 2008, at 8:59:25
> > > Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
> >
> > could other siblings help, too?
>
> up to a point only...and they cannot take away the fear of the parent.Thats true, they might not be able to take it away completely. In what ways might they be able to help up to a point?
> I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult.
So I shouldnt try to be a leader either?
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on April 24, 2008, at 9:40:35
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2008, at 9:33:49
> > > > Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
> > >
> > > could other siblings help, too?
> >
> > up to a point only...and they cannot take away the fear of the parent.
>
> Thats true, they might not be able to take it away completely. In what ways might they be able to help up to a point?
>
> > I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult.
>
> So I shouldnt try to be a leader either?
>
> Bobwhat do you think you should be?
Posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 9:55:05
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2008, at 9:33:49
You are beginning to sound like the Delphic Oracle, answering every question with another question! How about some considered "suggestions and solutions"? We have previously mentioned a number of things which we thought would be helpful; I, for one, was hoping that you would give your views about them, perhaps improve upon them, and open a dialogue with us about what the problems actually were that led to the crisis, and how we can avoid having it happen again. The oft-quoted aphorism "those who don't understand the past are condemned to repeat it" comes to mind in this situation. It's vital to clearly identify what went wrong and then work together to ensure that it doesn't happen again. If you are going to just endlessly ask questions, we can't even begin to do that.. As a forum, we remain in need of a renewed sense of community, purpose and trust. I don't think we have recovered yet from what happened last month, and we may never if we don't begin constructive discussions.
Posted by fayeroe on April 24, 2008, at 12:31:48
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 9:55:05
the archives, twinleaf, are full of Bob answering questions with questions. i think that when he doesn't know the answer or doesn't want to be put the spot, he tries to put it on us....it never has worked. it only creates resentment. it was going on when i came here and i suspect he is now back in that mode.
i suspect that it may have something to do with his research.
Posted by muffled on April 24, 2008, at 13:21:06
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 24, 2008, at 9:40:35
> > > I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult.
> >
> > So I shouldnt try to be a leader either?
> >
> > Bob
>
> what do you think you should be?
>
>*ROFL!!!!!
;-)
Posted by muffled on April 24, 2008, at 13:21:54
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 9:55:05
Posted by muffled on April 24, 2008, at 13:22:39
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » twinleaf, posted by fayeroe on April 24, 2008, at 12:31:48
Posted by muffled on April 24, 2008, at 13:29:41
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 24, 2008, at 9:33:49
> Thats true, they might not be able to take it away completely. In what ways might they be able to help up to a point?
*they help by doing exactly what they doing. They are available to talk, privately if necc.
It would help if they could help more with the parent probs....but that doesn't seem to be possible, the parent don't listen to them either.
> > I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult.
>
> So I shouldnt try to be a leader either?
>
*I kinda wish you'd keep a real low profile...
Leave most deputizing stuff to deputies. But still keep up w/whats going on here and support your deputies as needed.
I think admin should be more equal, maybe Bob, you don't do stuff like blocks and stuff unless you have consulted with deps FIRST and they are in agreement with you...LISTEN and HEAR what deps have to say.
Thats what I think.
M
Posted by fayeroe on April 24, 2008, at 13:40:22
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on April 24, 2008, at 13:29:41
> > Thats true, they might not be able to take it away completely. In what ways might they be able to help up to a point?
>
> *they help by doing exactly what they doing. They are available to talk, privately if necc.
> It would help if they could help more with the parent probs....but that doesn't seem to be possible, the parent don't listen to them either.
>
> > > I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult.
> >
> > So I shouldnt try to be a leader either?
> >
> *I kinda wish you'd keep a real low profile...
> Leave most deputizing stuff to deputies. But still keep up w/whats going on here and support your deputies as needed.
> I think admin should be more equal, maybe Bob, you don't do stuff like blocks and stuff unless you have consulted with deps FIRST and they are in agreement with you...LISTEN and HEAR what deps have to say.
> Thats what I think.
> MMuffled, dear, i fear that Bob uses the crazy math of the block system because he knows that most of us don't understand it. that keeps the wolves away from the door. if we knew what the hell he is doing, we would be snarling and trying to blow the straw house down.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2008, at 23:57:08
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 9:55:05
> We have previously mentioned a number of things which we thought would be helpful; I, for one, was hoping that you would give your views about them, perhaps improve upon them, and open a dialogue with us about what the problems actually were that led to the crisis, and how we can avoid having it happen again.
Regarding the specific interesting dynamic that you mentioned, I'd like regular posters who want to help and think they can to feel free to do so. They don't need to wait for the deputies. The deputies will appreciate the help. They can't be everywhere all the time.
What can a regular poster do to help? I especially like a number of the suggestions that were posted before:
> supportive efforts towards posters who begin to feel too anxious or unsafe to post, and calming, reassuring efforts towards posters who are feeling angry, unappreciated or misunderstood here.
>
> twinleaf> 3. In a time of crisis, I think it would be really nice to see the deputies and the "older members" lend themselves to calming the members that are obviously very upset.
>
> 4. Diffusing a situation shows compassion and the poster knows they have been heard.
>
> 7. It would be really cool if by looking at what has happened in the past few days the posters could committ to not "stirring the pot" as that is very upsetting to people who want to see a solution...not more conflict.
>
> fayeroe> One thing that could be useful is that if someone is posting in an angry manner, that someone writes to him/her and asks in a friendly way if there is anything wrong because the posts come across as angry.
>
> SigismundAnd of course it helps to be civil. :-)
With all that, I think there would be less need for administrative action. Ideally, there wouldn't be any! But this isn't an ideal board, so I'd like posters to notify us if something might be brewing. That way, if administrative action does become necessary, we'll be ready.
How does that sound?
Bob
Posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 0:19:59
In reply to Re: suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2008, at 23:57:08
I think all the suggestions are good and useful. I'd like to consider one more: thinking back on the situation last month, everything just escalated day by day to the point where it was really out of control. A number of posters were hurt and frightened, and a number of others have simply disappeared. For some babble members, even PCB's by deputies, which would usually be accepted as reasonable, were causes for increased anger, because they were seen as being unevenly administered- as being used as weapons to defend deputies' friends, and to attack other posters who were less well known, or had differing views. I'd like to suggest that PCBs be used very sparingly in times of crisis. Instead, the notification button could be used. Who responds, and how is apparently under discussion now, according to Dinah's post, below. If nothing else, doing that will tend to stop escalating, angry discussions. People will tend to wait for a reply, but if none comes, they may find that they are calmer and more reflective in a day or two. They could even say that they have made a notification- then probably everyone will pause for a while. I don't know if others feel the way I do, but the two most disturbing things about that situation were seeing long-time posters become increasingly angry and hurtful towards other posters- even ones they had known for a long time, and losing valuable posters, either because they simply disappeared, or because they no longer said anything much.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2008, at 9:41:45
In reply to Re: suggestions and solutions » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 0:19:59
> I think all the suggestions are good and useful.
Thanks, I'm glad we agree.
> I'd like to suggest that PCBs be used very sparingly in times of crisis. Instead, the notification button could be used. ... If nothing else, doing that will tend to stop escalating, angry discussions. People will tend to wait for a reply, but if none comes, they may find that they are calmer and more reflective in a day or two. They could even say that they have made a notification- then probably everyone will pause for a while.
I think that's a great point, that notifying us may be an alternative to replying directly to a poster and slow down or even prevent escalating.
> I don't know if others feel the way I do, but the two most disturbing things about that situation were seeing long-time posters become increasingly angry and hurtful towards other posters- even ones they had known for a long time, and losing valuable posters, either because they simply disappeared, or because they no longer said anything much.
I also regret that posters sometimes feel hurt and withdraw. And I welcome further suggestions and solutions that may help minimize that.
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2008, at 11:00:49
In reply to Re: suggestions and solutions » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 0:19:59
> I don't know if others feel the way I do, but the two most disturbing things about that situation were seeing long-time posters become increasingly angry and hurtful towards other posters- even ones they had known for a long time, ... .
Yes, I found it disturbing to feel increasingly angry and appalled as events unfolded. And after trying to challenge statements I questioned or disagreed with, I felt increasingly frustrated.
Incidentally, I appreciate the way you've phrased your individual ideas and feelings in this post.
gg
Posted by twinleaf on April 28, 2008, at 18:46:56
In reply to Re: suggestions and solutions » twinleaf, posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2008, at 11:00:49
Thank you, gg. I appreciate what you expressed, also.
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 25, 2008, at 8:36:54
In reply to Re: suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2008, at 23:57:08
> > We have previously mentioned a number of things which we thought would be helpful; I, for one, was hoping that you would give your views about them, perhaps improve upon them, and open a dialogue with us about what the problems actually were that led to the crisis, and how we can avoid having it happen again.
>
> Regarding the specific interesting dynamic that you mentioned, I'd like regular posters who want to help and think they can to feel free to do so. They don't need to wait for the deputies. The deputies will appreciate the help. They can't be everywhere all the time.
>
> What can a regular poster do to help? I especially like a number of the suggestions that were posted before:
>
> > supportive efforts towards posters who begin to feel too anxious or unsafe to post, and calming, reassuring efforts towards posters who are feeling angry, unappreciated or misunderstood here.
> >
> > twinleaf
>
> > 3. In a time of crisis, I think it would be really nice to see the deputies and the "older members" lend themselves to calming the members that are obviously very upset.
> >
> > 4. Diffusing a situation shows compassion and the poster knows they have been heard.
> >
> > 7. It would be really cool if by looking at what has happened in the past few days the posters could committ to not "stirring the pot" as that is very upsetting to people who want to see a solution...not more conflict.
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> > One thing that could be useful is that if someone is posting in an angry manner, that someone writes to him/her and asks in a friendly way if there is anything wrong because the posts come across as angry.
> >
> > Sigismund
>
> And of course it helps to be civil. :-)
>
> With all that, I think there would be less need for administrative action. Ideally, there wouldn't be any! But this isn't an ideal board, so I'd like posters to notify us if something might be brewing. That way, if administrative action does become necessary, we'll be ready.
>
> How does that sound?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...I'd like..posters who want to help...to do so.They don't need to wait for the deputies....I'd like posters to notify us...That way...we'll be ready...]
I am unsure as to why then some notifications of mine are outstanding and also some emails from me to you are outstanding. I am requesting that for me to have a clearer understanding of your policy here and your rationale(s) in regards that your TOS writes that you welcome feedback and that you do what in your thinking will be good for he community as a whole and that you want us to trust you about that and that you take responsibility for what you write here and now you have posted that poster notifications can help the administration to {be ready}. If you could post here replies to the following concerns of mine, then I could have the opportunity to try to undertsand what you reply to me with in regards to why some of my notifications and emails to you are outstanding and respond accordingly.
A.Could you post here as to what psychiatric/psychological practice, if any, there could be in the liturature that you know of that could support leaving a notification, or a request to you for a rationale or clarification or identification concerning your policy and such, which I consider has the potential to be considered to be like a notification, of mine or from another member outstanding that purports that my notification being outstanding will be good for the community as a whole? If you could post here a link to an article, if you know of one, of some related nature from a journal of psychiatry/psychology, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
B. Of the outstanding notifications and requests from me to you for you to post your criteria or rational(s) for what you have posted here in regards to your TOS and policy for clarification to just ask you for your rationale and that you welcome feedback and take responsibility for what you write here and such, could you take into account and consideration in any reply to me that I consider a request for you to post your rationale(s) or criteria that you use such as those criteria that you use to determine as to if a statement does or does not lead someone of a group to feel put down? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly and this could in my opinion help the administration to be ready as you have posted in regards to the statement in question here, for I consider myself to be in the catagory of those posters that want to help as in the statement in question here and I believe that my notifications/requests for criteria/rational(s) have, if replied to, the potential to be of a helpfull nature here.
Lou Pilder
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