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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phoenix1 on February 14, 2008, at 16:01:41
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 year » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on February 14, 2008, at 14:06:10
> See, now this is what really bugs me about this place Bob. When a veteran poster who, in my experience, is generally a supportive and genuine participant starts behaving as if they are acting out some personal emotional problem here and the response is to banish him from a purported mental health support forum, well, it just strikes me as wrong. I know that civility is necessary here, but at the expense of support? Have you contacted verne and asked him if he's okay? If possible, I hope someone does and reports back, because these banishments can often be more upsetting to many of us on PB than are the offenses of an upset poster.
Toph,
There may be a history of supportive friendly posts, but I feel like lately, the posts have been clearly uncivil.
Note this thread:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080204/msgs/812603.html
A teenage girl is reduced to tears by what I feel is a totally unnecessary, accusatory, and angry post that was clearly intended to hurt feelings. And there was 0 provocation, totally out of left field. IMO that post should be the one resulting in the 1 year ban. And why is it one year? Look at the LONG LONG history of warnings and blocks for this poster. It stretches back years. I feel like this person needs to work on civility skills. I think on PB, we often go way, WAY overboard to enforce civility, but here is a case that I actually feel is totally justified. I do, however hope that someone contacts Verne to make sure he's OK. I know that blocks can be painful, but in this case it really did seem necessary for the greater good... Just my opinion.
Phoenix1
Posted by Toph on February 14, 2008, at 16:57:01
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 year » Toph, posted by Phoenix1 on February 14, 2008, at 16:01:41
I concur that a disturbing pattern of offensive posts developed Phoenix, and that there needs to be support for anyone who is harmed by another poster. My only concern is that people in this community have mental illness and we should expect that sometimes they may act out. I once tried to grab a bone from my dog at night. In the dark, not knowing it was me, he acted like a dog, growled and bit my hand slightly. I didn't shoot him.
Posted by Phoenix1 on February 14, 2008, at 17:03:21
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 year » Phoenix1, posted by Toph on February 14, 2008, at 16:57:01
> I concur that a disturbing pattern of offensive posts developed Phoenix, and that there needs to be support for anyone who is harmed by another poster. My only concern is that people in this community have mental illness and we should expect that sometimes they may act out. I once tried to grab a bone from my dog at night. In the dark, not knowing it was me, he acted like a dog, growled and bit my hand slightly. I didn't shoot him.
I like your dog analogy, it's very appropriate in this situation. I have to agree with you. I think a year is excessive. It really is no different than permanent banishment. And we do have to recognize that as people with mental illnesses, we may not always have the presence of mind to abide by the civility rules. But I feel that there is a long pattern with the poster in question. How do you protect the rest of the PB community from repeated incivility? How do you reconcile saving an individual from exclusion by putting the group at risk of emotional harm? It's a tough decision, and I'm certainly glad I don't have to make it.
Phoenix1
Posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 18:19:56
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 year » Toph, posted by Phoenix1 on February 14, 2008, at 16:01:41
Why didn't Bob remove the post as soon as he read it? Does he not also bear responsibility for his decision and its consequences?
>
> A teenage girl is reduced to tears
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 14, 2008, at 18:33:47
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 year » Phoenix1, posted by Toph on February 14, 2008, at 16:57:01
>a disturbing pattern of offensive posts
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 14, 2008, at 18:34:15
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 year » Toph, posted by Phoenix1 on February 14, 2008, at 16:01:41
>the posts have been clearly uncivil.
>this person needs to work on civility skills
>a totally unnecessary, accusatory, and angry post that was clearly intended to hurt feelings.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
Since you've been warned recently, and also given a demonstration of a rephrase using "I" statements on this board, I am going to block you from posting for one week.
Simply placing the words "I feel" in front of statements that go on to negatively characterize posts or posters, or could lead them to feel accused or put down, does not meet the civility standard here. "I" statements that are okay are ones about *your* feelings, such as, "I felt upset when I read that," as opposed to, "I feel your posts are uncivil." It helps some people to ask another Babbler to be a 'civility buddy' and look over your posts before you submit them.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil.
Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 18:52:21
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 14, 2008, at 1:54:17
As a philosophy, multiculturalism began as part of the pragmatism movement at the end of the nineteenth century in Britain and in the United States, then as political and cultural pluralism at the turn of the twentieth. It was partly in response to a new wave of European imperialism in sub-Saharan Africa and the massive immigration of Southern and Eastern Europeans to the United States and Latin America. Philosophers, psychologists and historians and early sociologists such as Charles Sanders Peirce, William James, George Santayana, Horace Kallen, John Dewey, W.E.B. Du Bois and Alain Locke developed concepts of cultural pluralism, from which emerged what we understand today as multiculturalism. In Pluralistic Universe (1909), William James espoused the idea of a "plural society." James saw pluralism as "crucial to the formation of philosophical and social humanism to help build a better, more egalitarian society.[1]
In the Western English-speaking countries, multiculturalism as an official national policy started in Canada in 1971
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism
Jay I don't believe it is quite accurate to say Canada invented multiculturalism, at least according to the Wiki article above. But Canada is certainly to be commended for embracing the philosophy originated by the British and Americans and making it national policy :)Ideas are our best exports.
> Plus, I am Canadian. We invennted, and embrace multi-culturalism. :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Jay
>
Posted by Toph on February 14, 2008, at 19:16:19
In reply to Please Be Civil » Toph, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 14, 2008, at 18:33:47
> >a disturbing pattern of offensive posts
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>Just curious, if the posts weren't offensive, then why was the poster blocked for a year?
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 14, 2008, at 19:45:21
In reply to Re: peace and love, posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2008, at 1:56:10
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 14, 2008, at 20:04:06
In reply to the invention of multi-culturalism » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 18:52:21
I think this topic probably belongs on another board, but I thought it was obvious I was far from being literal.
Jay
Posted by Justherself54 on February 14, 2008, at 20:04:42
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 week » Phoenix1, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 14, 2008, at 18:34:15
Why does simply speaking the truth deserve a block?
I FEEL Phoenix1 has turned out to be one of the most supportive and informed posters and has helped me greatly.
I FEEL so sick of the civility rules and all the I, I, I,'s we have to rack our brains about before we post.
I FEEL what he said was nothing but the truth..
I FEEL this will not only hurt Phoenix1 but also all the people he is and could be helping during his block..
I FEEL very, very angry!!
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 21:02:55
In reply to Re: Please Be Civil » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Toph on February 14, 2008, at 19:16:19
Dr. Bob has long held the position that blocked posters are protected equally under the civility guidelines and the same rules apply to everyone. So even if someone is blocked for saying something, maybe even especially if someone is blocked for saying something, Babblers still have to be careful not to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 21:14:10
In reply to Re: blocked for 1 weekPhoenix1, posted by Justherself54 on February 14, 2008, at 20:04:42
I think it's great to be supportive of Phoenix1. And I agree that Phoenix1 is a supportive and informed poster, and hope to see him/her back on board after this week.
If someone were to tell me I was ugly, it might be the truth, but it wouldn't be allowable under the civility guidelines. Moreover, the perception of what is true varies among people. So "truth" does not exempt one from the civility guidelines.
"I feel" does not automatically make an "I" statement. An I statement is a statement about yourself, not about those other than yourself.
"I feel very very angry." is an "I" statement. It is a statement about yourself.
"I FEEL Phoenix1 has turned out to be one of the most supportive and informed posters and has helped me greatly." is a very supportive statement about Phoenix1, not an "I" statement.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 14, 2008, at 21:19:28
In reply to Supporting Phoenix1 » Justherself54, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 21:14:10
Posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 21:53:26
In reply to Supporting Phoenix1 » Justherself54, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 21:14:10
Is "I feel like a radioactive skunk at a sunday school party" a thought or a feeling?
I feel curious.
Posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 21:57:39
In reply to thought or feeling? » Dinah, posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 21:53:26
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 22:04:48
In reply to thought or feeling? » Dinah, posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 21:53:26
It's an "I" statement, which would be the point as far as civility guidelines were concerned.
In a nonadministrative thought, my guess is that it would be a description of a feeling, since you probably don't mean you think you were a radioactive skunk? Even I feel angry is a thought about a feeling isn't it?
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 22:10:34
In reply to OOPS above post for Deputy Dinah (nm) » zazenducke, posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 21:57:39
Please ignore all but the first line of the previous post.
Posted by Justherself54 on February 14, 2008, at 22:17:57
In reply to Supporting Phoenix1 » Justherself54, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 21:14:10
> I think it's great to be supportive of Phoenix1. And I agree that Phoenix1 is a supportive and informed poster, and hope to see him/her back on board after this week.
>
> If someone were to tell me I was ugly, it might be the truth, but it wouldn't be allowable under the civility guidelines. Moreover, the perception of what is true varies among people. So "truth" does not exempt one from the civility guidelines.
>
> "I feel" does not automatically make an "I" statement. An I statement is a statement about yourself, not about those other than yourself.
>
> "I feel very very angry." is an "I" statement. It is a statement about yourself.
>
> "I FEEL Phoenix1 has turned out to be one of the most supportive and informed posters and has helped me greatly." is a very supportive statement about Phoenix1, not an "I" statement.
>
>OK, this is where I get confused..how is "I feel Phoenix 1 etc." not an I statement..what I said is what I feel as it pertains to me..because he's supportive and informed I am helped by him..I don't get it..and I don't feel very good about being a part of Babble right now..
I know by being part of this website you have to abide by the rules..but I've felt this for a long time and I may get blocked for it, at this point I don't care..the administration of this site at times feels to me like judge and jury, handing down convictions but the defendants/accused have no right or recourse to appeal..I worked in the Justice system for 18 years where almost everything has an appeal process..so it's a bitter pill to swallow when I see this type of blocking happen..
That's all I'm going to say now, I think!
Posted by zazenducke on February 14, 2008, at 22:46:05
In reply to Re: Supporting Phoenix1, posted by Justherself54 on February 14, 2008, at 22:17:57
Posted by Toph on February 15, 2008, at 4:58:44
In reply to Blocked posters » Toph, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2008, at 21:02:55
> ... So even if someone is blocked for saying something, maybe even especially if someone is blocked for saying something, Babblers still have to be careful not to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
I see your point, although I thought the purpose of the admin sight was to have a board for the discussion of administration and it's rules. How then do we discuss infractions by another poster or are we only allowed to talk about our own infractions here (wait, that would be kind of tough if I were banned from posting for a year)?
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2008, at 7:45:17
In reply to Re: Blocked posters » Dinah, posted by Toph on February 15, 2008, at 4:58:44
Dr. Bob has changed the rules here a bit, so that we're supposed to use the notify administrators function to report posts or posters.
Administration is for discussion of general problems now, not problems with particular posts.
But even before that, Dr. Bob discouraged negative comments about blocked posters or PBC's. I assume the idea is that the block or PBC is Admin response, and if you agree with that response, it doesn't need to be discussed administratively any further.
Not that it's not ok to support Administration. Just that Dr. Bob asks that we do so without negatively characterizing the posts of others.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 15, 2008, at 7:56:58
In reply to Re: Supporting Phoenix1, posted by Justherself54 on February 14, 2008, at 22:17:57
A poster who is blocked may appeal to Dr. Bob via email.
gg
Posted by Toph on February 15, 2008, at 8:40:36
In reply to Re: Blocked posters » Toph, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2008, at 7:45:17
I think I already know this stuff Dinah. My point is that it always seems so ironic and sad when a member of a mental health support forum gets severely punished instead of helped, but then I think you already know that also.
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2008, at 9:13:50
In reply to Re: Blocked posters » Dinah, posted by Toph on February 15, 2008, at 8:40:36
I think there are inherent limitations to an internet bulletin board as a form of help. I know there are different ideas as to how to best use the format to the best advantage for the greatest amount of help to the greatest number of people. I think you and Dr. Bob both want the same end, although Dr. Bob's ideas may be different than yours about how to achieve it.
I think it's a shame that there are limitations, not just in this but in many other aspects. So many times I just really ache to help someone, but know that they need help IRL, and that an internet bulletin board, no matter how well intentioned, is not enough. That's not a comment on this circumstance, but just a general comment.
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