![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 169 to 193 of 275. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 8:03:50
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Dinah, posted by Damos on June 5, 2006, at 5:05:30
It's mutual of course. And everyone has their moments of regret. Take a break if you need to, but I hope to see you when you feel ready.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 8:21:53
In reply to I have been asked to come here and apologise, posted by NikkiT2 on June 5, 2006, at 0:56:50
> But I am sorry.
> I stand by what I said. Yes, some feel I said it wrongly, and I did do wrong to use Estella's name where I should have used my own as an example, but her name was forefront in my mind at the time.
There are innocent explanations for almost anything we might do. Naive innocent explanations. But everyone seems willing to believe the most noxious and malevolent explanation. The first thing one should do is ask, though, don't you think?
> I still believe that my points stand though. And nasty, bullying babble mails will NOT change that. It has just reminded me what a basically nasty place PB can be. And that has NOTHING to do with the rules, but the people.
When I was experiencing the biggest psychological crisis of my entire life, just a few short weeks ago, here, on this board, you would not believe the emails I received. They would shock you. More than mere schadenfreude, I was shocked by other elements in these purportedly helpful messages. Shocked.
I'm sorry our paths have come parallel. In the physical pain that envelopes us, perhaps it limits cognition as well. Senselessness? Sensory burnout?
I'm not seeking excuses.... but to have you go through so many similar confluences, leads me to wonder if there isn't a very human tragic process. If that's the case, Nikki, I can also promise you that it will end. I got through it, Nik. I am truly looking at it from the other side now.
> Oh, and yes.. I am pure evil aren't I? And NO ONEs suicide will ever be on my head, as it is a decision one person makes and no one else.Oh, Nik. Oh dear. So helpful, these people. So very helpful and supportive.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 8:34:41
In reply to Re: blocked » agent858, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 2:48:47
> However, I think you posted some lovely things and I appreciate your trying to promote harmony here. I really do admire you for that.
The status quo does precisely this, every time it is employed. It prevents the very thing that would have solved everything in a simpler gentler fashion.
It prevents civility.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 8:37:43
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Dinah, posted by Damos on June 5, 2006, at 5:05:30
> Thanks Dinah,
>
> My behaviour was/is unacceptable to me regardless of contributing factors, motivation or intent. If I cannot trust myself to post I think it's best for all if I just stay away.
>
> Thank you for all you do for the boards. I have so much respect and admiration for you.
>
> Best wishes to all,
> DamosDamos, forgive yourself, please. My world is far better when I can see you in it, than the one where I know you are there, but I can't find you in the crowd.
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 5, 2006, at 8:45:41
In reply to Re: I have been asked to come here and apologise » NikkiT2, posted by Damos on June 5, 2006, at 4:58:56
Damos,
There is nothing to apologise for.
I read your babble mail before coming to PB, and as such, I decided that your message would probably upset me more than I could handle right now (ie, rushing to get ready for work at stupid o'clock, or sitting in my office at work).. So, I've not actually read it.
I will, this evening, if you would like me to. Or I won't, if you would prefer that.
The call is yours
Nikki
Posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 9:42:49
In reply to blocked » agent858, posted by agent858 on June 4, 2006, at 23:30:03
I am surprised that Bob would say such a thing. I still find the civility rules confusing.
I believe certain narcissistic traits would hamper the effective moderation of this site..
a lack of empathy,
the inability to see others as separate individuals
the need for absolute control/domination of the relationship
the need for constant admiration
inability to admit mistakes or flaws
a sense of entitlement...the expectation that others should do what he wants because he wants it
I wonder if conflict with administrative needs might be at the root of the unsuitability rather than some personality disorder within the poster.......
hmmmmmm......
well just musing.
>
> i know you say this site isn't suited to everyone...
> and people might have a hard time fitting in
> this place might not be the right place
> but then you go on to say especially people who are
> borderline
> narcissistic
> etc
> sounds like a slur to those who won't accept your ****** state to me.
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 9:48:50
In reply to please be kind to each other, posted by agent858 on June 4, 2006, at 23:11:32
That's what I see here.
In the face of Bob's silence.
I guess the only question is, will she be martyred for it.
I hope not.
Lar
Posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 9:59:53
In reply to Re: Civil disobedience » agent858, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 9:48:50
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 11:29:42
In reply to Re: blocked » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 8:34:41
I don't see the not posting while blocked rule as preventing civility. It seems perfectly common sense to me.
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 11:33:23
In reply to Re: Civil disobedience » agent858, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 9:48:50
Or at least not on Admin.
Therefore his silence means nothing other than that he hasn't been on board.
You can be angry with him for not being on board. But it would be pretty hard to respond to something he hasn't yet read.
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 11:36:49
In reply to BOB said that?????????????, posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 9:42:49
I don't recall Dr. Bob saying that. If anyone has links?
Please remember that the civility guidelines apply to Dr. Bob as well, although he is admittedly more lenient in applying them that way.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 11:45:49
In reply to Posting while blocked » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 11:29:42
> I don't see the not posting while blocked rule as preventing civility. It seems perfectly common sense to me.
I'm not making an absolute statement. Sometimes just a little talking out solves the misunderstandings. An innocent naive comment might appear to be something else. No mens rea. No animus nocendi. No criminal intent.By not being able to provide insight into the "accused"'s state of mind, the block prevents a simple civil discussion that might clear everything up.
There are other cases, of course, where animus nocendi is blatant.
Lar
Posted by henrietta on June 5, 2006, at 15:23:35
In reply to Re: Posting while blocked » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 11:45:49
I wonder if a deputy could explain why Nikki wasn't given a PBC. I really am puzzled. This is a sincere question. It seems that the rules
would require either a PBC or a please rephrase, or something. I think it would have defused the situation considerably and helped to foster a sense of consistency and fairness. Can someone explain whatever it is I'm not understanding?I guess the appropriate time may have passed on this one, but if something similar happens again....???
Thank you.
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 17:09:43
In reply to Question, posted by henrietta on June 5, 2006, at 15:23:35
Nikki did get a PBC. And the reason I didn't give one earlier is because I thought she was mistaken in her appraisal of her post. To me the post was filled with things she obviously chose because she *didn't* think the world would be better off without them, and were therefore truly hypotheticals. She did not appear to be phrasing things as hypotheticals so she could get away with saying something.
I did put in a request to Dr. Bob for clarification, in case I was wrong. And when he comes to the board, I assume I'll receive guidance for the future.
Posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 18:51:09
In reply to Re: BOB said that????????????? » zazenduck, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 11:36:49
> I don't recall Dr. Bob saying that. If anyone has links?
>
> Please remember that the civility guidelines apply to Dr. Bob as well, although he is admittedly more lenient in applying them that way.I think agent858 is right. I think there's a link somewhere to a paper or something that Dr Bob has written. I will try to find the link.
Posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 19:23:35
In reply to Re: BOB said that?????????????, posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 18:51:09
Darn; can't find it and haven't got time to look further. I think I read it a few months ago when Deneb posted a link to it. It might have been the "Reaching Out Across Cyberspace" paper, but I can't access it right now to check...
Sorry.
Posted by henrietta on June 5, 2006, at 19:29:34
In reply to Speaking only for myself » henrietta, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 17:09:43
i am too angry to reply
i give up
Posted by Deneb on June 5, 2006, at 19:47:16
In reply to Re: BOB said that?????????????, posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 19:23:35
"Reading Out Across Cyberspace" is a presentation of Bob's.
There's this paper Dr. Bob wrote, called "The best of both Worlds", but I don't recall there being anything about borderline or narcissistic personality disorders.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/research.html
Dr. Bob, I hope you didn't single out a group of people to say they don't fit in.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 19:52:10
In reply to Re: Speaking only for myself, posted by henrietta on June 5, 2006, at 19:29:34
You asked politely for an explanation of my actions so I answered. I'm sorry my answer made you angry. However, it is the truth, so I must stand by it.
If Dr. Bob disagrees with my assessment, he can do what he thinks is appropriate. Deputy decisions are never final. And risking the ire of all who find it irksome when Dr. Bob says it, I am doing my best, and that's all I can do.
Posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 19:54:23
In reply to Re: BOB said that????????????? » zazenduck, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 11:36:49
Good to know.
Apparently his speculations about people being unsuitable for his board because of personality disorders have caused others to feel put down.
Deputy Dinah if you consider that uncivil I urge you to have the moral courage to PBC him. If you consider my list of narcissistic traits uncivil please withdraw my post.
I offered it for purposes of hypothetical alternative explanation only not as an accusation against Bob. I don't know why he does the things he does. I like Bob but I don't like seeing his actions hurt people I care about.
>
> Please remember that the civility guidelines apply to Dr. Bob as well,
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 20:05:54
In reply to Civility guidelines apply to DR BOB » Dinah, posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 19:54:23
But I can't *find* that. Nor do I recall it.
I don't ever recall myself lacking in moral courage enough not to say what I think to Dr. Bob. If I remember correctly, one of my first interactions with Dr. Bob involved threatening to have my mother give him a good talking to. And him replying that that was fine, just to have her please register under her own posting name.
I like Dr. Bob as well. I think I liked him since he made that very polite response to my impassioned post.
And I'm also sad when people feel hurt. I've always suspected that Dr. Bob is as well.
Posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 20:15:50
In reply to BOB said that?????????????, posted by zazenduck on June 5, 2006, at 9:42:49
> I am surprised that Bob would say such a thing. I still find the civility rules confusing.
>
> But in general I believe certain narcissistic traits would hamper the effective moderation of a mental health site..
>
> a lack of empathy,
>
> the inability to see others as separate individuals
>
> the need for absolute control/domination of the relationship
>
> the need for constant admiration
>
> inability to admit mistakes or flaws
>
> a sense of entitlement...the expectation that others should do what he wants because he wants it
I wonder if conflict with administrative needs might be at the root of the unsuitability rather than some personality disorder within the poster.......
hmmmmmm......
well just musing.
>
>
>
>> >
>
Posted by zazenduck on June 6, 2006, at 8:58:27
In reply to Re: Civility guidelines apply to DR BOB » zazenduck, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2006, at 20:05:54
I did not mean to imply in any way that you were lacking in moral courage. I withdraw my comment. I am acquiring civility scrupulosity on this board.
>
> I don't ever recall myself lacking in moral courage enough not to say what I think to Dr. Bob. If I remember correctly, one of my first interactions with Dr. Bob involved threatening to have my mother give him a good talking to.Were you serious?
> And him replying that that was fine, just to have her please register under her own posting name.
>
> I like Dr. Bob as well. I think I liked him since he made that very polite response to my impassioned post.It's interesting that you interpreted it that way :) I think I would have felt like he missed the point if he failed to respond to what I was impassioned about and responded literally to the threat to have my mom talk to him. I think Estella was right that Bob's style does encourage transference. I scrupulously note that I do not mean anything remotely negative by that observation
I think I saw him originally as an idealist trying to form a community which let people meet on common ground and discuss things which had been the domain of doctors. That was back in the days before registration. The only rule was please be civil. And when someone was blocked-SURPRISE-it wasn't me :) there wasn't even a number a days the person just emailed Bob when he was ready to return. I thought Bob was a true humanitarian and a champion of people who hadn't had a voice-people labelled mentally ill. And of course that was transference too I suppose. I always felt very protective of him because he seemed a little naive to me in those days. *rolling my eyes at myself*
And so my criticism of him is in part because I feel like he strayed so far from his own ideals which of course were not his but my own which I guess I projected onto him........or maybe not.
But then by the time you realize that you misinterpeted this place it's too late to leave because so many wonderful things can happen here
like finding Henrietta and Ludvig Wittgenstein
>
> And I'm also sad when people feel hurt. I've always suspected that Dr. Bob is as well.I try not to have suspicions about Dr Bob I really really try :) Where did he go and why did he leave that very strange picture before he went.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2006, at 9:45:38
In reply to Re: Civility clarifications » Dinah, posted by zazenduck on June 6, 2006, at 8:58:27
> I did not mean to imply in any way that you were lacking in moral courage. I withdraw my comment. I am acquiring civility scrupulosity on this board.
Why, I thank you for that. It must be my obsessiveness, but I was a wee bit hurt. I had rather thought my moral courage was self evident. I pray you will allow me my small vanities.
> > I don't ever recall myself lacking in moral courage enough not to say what I think to Dr. Bob. If I remember correctly, one of my first interactions with Dr. Bob involved threatening to have my mother give him a good talking to.
>
> Were you serious?I was completely serious. I don't recall what the point was now, but it was before I knew him well. Or rather as well as I do now, which still isn't particularly well. My mother's crusades were usually either about doing what you thought was right (and I can't imagine I'd fuss at that with Dr. Bob who appears to always do what he thinks is right) or about embracing differences in others and being tolerant and inclusive (so I by process of elimination, it probably had something to do with that). I really enjoy Dr. Bob's sense of humor when he employs it, and it seemed clear to me that he was employing humor.
> > And him replying that that was fine, just to have her please register under her own posting name.
> >
> > I like Dr. Bob as well. I think I liked him since he made that very polite response to my impassioned post.
>
> It's interesting that you interpreted it that way :) I think I would have felt like he missed the point if he failed to respond to what I was impassioned about and responded literally to the threat to have my mom talk to him. I think Estella was right that Bob's style does encourage transference. I scrupulously note that I do not mean anything remotely negative by that observationWell, I have felt like that at other times, I must confess. But if I have the patience to be persistent and he has the time, he can usually accurately reflect back to me what I'm saying after a fair few rounds of clarification. And even if he doesn't agree with me, and I might wish that he appreciated my wisdom more, I'm generally content with feeling heard.
> I think I saw him originally as an idealist trying to form a community which let people meet on common ground and discuss things which had been the domain of doctors. That was back in the days before registration. The only rule was please be civil. And when someone was blocked-SURPRISE-it wasn't me :) there wasn't even a number a days the person just emailed Bob when he was ready to return. I thought Bob was a true humanitarian and a champion of people who hadn't had a voice-people labelled mentally ill. And of course that was transference too I suppose. I always felt very protective of him because he seemed a little naive to me in those days. *rolling my eyes at myself*:) I think the challenges facing him changed as the board grew bigger, and he changed as he thought best to deal with the new challenges. I was mightily impressed by Dr. Bob's ability to be polite yet firm in person and to be aware what was happening all around him and found him more than capable of taking care of himself, and changed my opinion of him by meeting him. But FWIW, there were elements in your assessment of him that I still wouldn't disagree with. And perhaps if you trusted your original judgement of him, but added the tremendous challenge of keeping a board this size running, there might be very charitable explanations for what he does.
I'm jealous, you know. I'd have loved to be around then. I've read the archives of course. But it was a different time on Babble, and while there were many gains in the way it changed, there were also clearly losses.
> And so my criticism of him is in part because I feel like he strayed so far from his own ideals which of course were not his but my own which I guess I projected onto him........or maybe not.
Or maybe not. :)
> But then by the time you realize that you misinterpeted this place it's too late to leave because so many wonderful things can happen here
>
> like finding Henrietta and Ludvig WittgensteinSo many wonderful things happen here, and I meet so many wonderful people. And I lose so many people I care about too, since few people stick around forever. It took a while for me to be able to accept that, if I've gotten there yet. Actually, I don't think I've gotten there at all.
> > And I'm also sad when people feel hurt. I've always suspected that Dr. Bob is as well.
>
> I try not to have suspicions about Dr Bob I really really try :) Where did he go and why did he leave that very strange picture before he went.
>
>I don't know. :( If I were to wave a magic wand, I'd have Dr. Bob at least tell the deputies when he'd be gone and for how long. And check for deputy emails first. I think he's been on the meds board. I hope nobody gets upset by that. He usually starts there. Perhaps he feels nostalgia too.
I hope my answer wasn't too ponderous. I tend to be a bit ponderous.
Posted by Tamar on June 6, 2006, at 15:51:20
In reply to Re: BOB said that????????????? » Tamar, posted by Deneb on June 5, 2006, at 19:47:16
> "Reading Out Across Cyberspace" is a presentation of Bob's.
>
> There's this paper Dr. Bob wrote, called "The best of both Worlds", but I don't recall there being anything about borderline or narcissistic personality disorders.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/research.htmlYeah... I found those. And I spent hours looking back through the archives and saw that you'd linked to the presentation in a post a few months ago.
If I recall, I couldn't open the presentation at the time (and I can't now) but I found the text elsewhere online. However, no sign of it now. Or at least, I can't find it. But when I looked at the presentation slides just now I'd say they went with the paper I remember reading.
> Dr. Bob, I hope you didn't single out a group of people to say they don't fit in.
I don't think it was quite like that. If I remember (and was a while ago), he said that people with some kinds of difficulties have an especially hard time dealing with this kind of forum. He mentioned borderline and narcisstic personalities as being particularly difficult for people who want to participate in a site like Babble. However, I can't provide a reference, so I won't try to dredge up much more from my memory. I mainly wanted to back Alex up. She didn't get it out of nowhere; I read the same source she read.
Tamar
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.