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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 17:49:46
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere, posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 14:10:46
> it happens as something of a repeating pattern methinks.
>
> the group starts to feel frustrated with a poster...
>
> one person says something uncivil to them
>
> (and then that can lead to a torrent of that)
>
> dr-bob steps in with a blocking...
>
> the group turns on dr-bob
>
> over and over
>
> interesting...
>
> my guess is he is willing to put up with people being mad at him
>
> so long as people leave one another alone
>I'm not sure how you can think that not hurling paint by number insults is leaving one another alone.
"In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean"
Do you think that its some sort of mindless energy that simply needs to be released and so it's done in the direction of Dr. Bob?
I don't think it is.
I really don't understand why you think punishment in this case is helpful. This isn't education, it's punishment. This is a real community to many and so being excommunicated can be devastating.
I don't agree with, in principal calling people manipulative. I think it can give people the idea that it's okay to shoot off to anyone who annoys them, or who's behaviour they do not understand.
In the case of Larry and deneb they had a relationship, it wasn't a case of getting fed up and spouting off.
A simple reminder to Lar to be careful, and letting him know what it could look like to others, would have been more than sufficient.
Dr. Bob has done that for others who have insulted each other but obviously have an understanding between them.
What's the point of a 6 week block? Is it Because those are the rules? Is it because "I'm doing it this way because this is the way I do it?"
Maybe people are upset because they know how much it can hurt, and because hurting Lar doesn't help the situation at all.
As Dr. Bob always says "Two wrongs don't make a right"
And maybe blocking people for infractions like swearing, and messing up wording when one is overwrought.. on a board for the mentally ill, is a bit like opening a hospital for Anorexics and kicking them out on their as* if they skip dinner.
You yourself called me manipulative..you jumped to an incorrect conclusion, no not with that exact word, but you did.
"Gabbi only asks me not to post to her because she doesn't like it when I disagree with her and wants me to shut up"
Amazingly nothing happened, and you know what? I lived through it.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 19:20:35
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 17:49:46
> Do you think that its some sort of mindless energy that simply needs to be released and so it's done in the direction of Dr. Bob?
> I don't think it is.displacement.
i dunno. just thinking really...
> I really don't understand why you think punishment in this case is helpful.well... i guess 'punishment' has negative connotations for many of us. because... it was administered erratically. because... it was too severe (abusive) etc. but technically speaking the point of punishment is to decrease the probability of that behaviour being repeated. not just by the person who was 'punished' but the rest of the forum learns vicariously too...
> This isn't education, it's punishment.
it is an attempt to show the community that it is not appropriate to say that someone is 'manipulative', 'playing games', and 'making me sick' yeah. that is what it is. the aim being... a reduction (or cessation) of people saying those things.
and i guess it is up to us to have a think about how helpful / harmful it may or may not be to endorse those thoughts...
> This is a real community to many and so being excommunicated can be devastating.
i know blocks hurt :-(
they hurt me a great deal :-(
but i guess i hope...
that i learn from them.
and i guess i hope...
that they prevent me harming someone else.
and that if i do harm someone else in that way...
that there will be consequences for me which shows the person i hurt...
that what i said to them was inappropriate.> I don't agree with, in principal calling people manipulative. I think it can give people the idea that it's okay to shoot off to anyone who annoys them, or who's behaviour they do not understand.
right.
> In the case of Larry and deneb they had a relationship, it wasn't a case of getting fed up and spouting off.
hmm...
i don't think i'd take it that way.
if you called me manipulative...
i'd be hurt and pissed off.
even though i know you are my friend.
i would be hurt and pissed off.
i might start to doubt my own intentions...
i might start to see my behaviour in that way...
i might...
hurt more because of it.other people reading the boards don't necessarily know anything about larry and deneb's relationship either.
they just see the words.
and whether those words were considered acceptable or not...
> A simple reminder to Lar to be careful, and letting him know what it could look like to others, would have been more than sufficient.
> Dr. Bob has done that for others who have insulted each other but obviously have an understanding between them.does he tend to do that less when people have racked up a number of blocks?
i don't know.
to me...
it was the you are making me sick comment.
sorry but...
i don't think that is appropriate
i do not.
> What's the point of a 6 week block? Is it Because those are the rules? Is it because "I'm doing it this way because this is the way I do it?"maybe it is about the blocking system... this is the way the blocking system goes... thus people can predict that if they get blocked again this is the block length they are facing...
you would think people would learn to be more careful when they appreciate that their next block could be the same (if they are lucky) and that it is mroe likely to be doubled or tripled.
> Maybe people are upset because they know how much it can hurt, and because hurting Lar doesn't help the situation at all.
i don't think the point of delivering a block as a consequence is to hurt larry.
i don't.
i think the point is to deliver a fairly predictable consequence for saying what he said.
so we know that if we say that...
we will get blocked too.
hence if you don't want to get blocked...
then don't say it.
so the point in delivering the punisher...
is so that people won't say that to one another on the forums.
or they will say them less than they would if there wasn't a punisher after his having said that.thats how blocks benefit the forums as a whole.
because we are all supposed to learn that that is not appropriate.
and if peopple didn't say those kinds of things...
the forum would be more supportive than if people did say those kinds of things...> As Dr. Bob always says "Two wrongs don't make a right"
i don't see how larry was wronged...
> And maybe blocking people for infractions like swearing, and messing up wording when one is overwrought.. on a board for the mentally ill, is a bit like opening a hospital for Anorexics and kicking them out on their as* if they skip dinner.
in dbt you have to committ to working towards reduction of SI.
SI is typically the problem, yes.
but if you do not commit to working on reducing it then you are kicked out of dbt.
if our mental health issues makes us prone to lashing out at others...
then i guess we can make a committment to learning more appropriate ways of behaving...
or we can persist...
let the blocks stack up...
get blocked for lengthy periods of time.yup.
> You yourself called me manipulative..
?
did i?> "Gabbi only asks me not to post to her because she doesn't like it when I disagree with her and wants me to shut up"
can you give me the context there?
i do believe there was a greater context of my saying that i was struggling with how to see your request...
that that was how i was seeing it...
that i appreciated that wasn't so helpful...
and that i was trying to hit upon a more charitable way.
which i do believe people helped me with.> Amazingly nothing happened, and you know what? I lived through it.
maybe because i was trying to hit upon a more charitable interpretation?
maybe because... i accepted a more charitable interpretation once i found one?
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 19:21:33
In reply to Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere, posted by Nickengland on January 8, 2006, at 12:16:45
yeah b/c a 6 week block is BS...imo
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 19:24:53
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » Nickengland, posted by Jakeman on January 8, 2006, at 14:01:09
hey there jakeman! yeah, i foresee blocks too! i wondered which you felt was ridiculous, the original block, the response of that block or both? just wondering...
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 19:35:16
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 17:49:46
you are absolutely correct and am willing myself to take a block over this non sense. Some are able to see a broader picture than others. We are all different. As I stated before, Lar was the one that convinced D to make an appt.. They didn't have a relationship is news to me.
Posted by Jakeman on January 8, 2006, at 20:05:00
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » Jakeman, posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 19:24:53
> hey there jakeman! yeah, i foresee blocks too! i wondered which you felt was ridiculous, the original block, the response of that block or both? just wondering...
hey there wildcard! All of it- the original block, the response to that block, and blocks resulting from various side arguments about the response to the block. I think I got that right.
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 20:09:22
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » wildcard, posted by Jakeman on January 8, 2006, at 20:05:00
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 20:17:03
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 19:20:35
> it is an attempt to show the community that it is not appropriate to say that someone is 'manipulative', 'playing games', and 'making me sick' yeah. that is what it is. the aim being... a reduction (or cessation) of people saying those things.
>
And how often does Larry do this?
Rhetorical question.Do we need to be protected from Larry?
Larry who we all know is completely thoughtless, posts without thinking, and runs around like a crazed dog randomly insulting people just for the hell of it.
>
> it was the you are making me sick comment.
>
> sorry but...
>
> i don't think that is appropriateThat isn't what he said and I think rewording his post is not appropriate especially when it makes such an enormous difference in the interpretation.
He said "Helping you has made me sick"
There's a HUGE difference there.Yeah, it would hurt me too.However, it's like saying "This is draining me"
People have said that.
I've been hurt or angered by what people have said here.
Why don't we just have a rule that says "content free posts only" no one will get hurt.
Everyone will feel safe.> maybe it is about the blocking system... this is the way the blocking system goes... thus people can predict that if they get blocked again this is the block length they are facing...
>Okay
"we shoot people for that in these parts.. that's the way it is..you know the consequences deal with it.. you won't be doing that again now will you"
> you would think people would learn to be more careful when they appreciate that their next block could be the same (if they are lucky) and that it is mroe likely to be doubled or tripled.
>Oh and just how likely is Larry going to run into this situation again?
There is just as much chance that it will make him less likely to reach out to someone in need.
He's more careful with his wording than just about anyone here. It's hardly a pattern that needs breaking.
> > Maybe people are upset because they know how much it can hurt, and because hurting Lar doesn't help the situation at all.
>
> i don't think the point of delivering a block as a consequence is to hurt larry.So? The fact is it DOES HURT
"Sorry, I didn't mean to hit you with the door, that wasn't my intention.."
> i think the point is to deliver a fairly predictable consequence for saying what he said.
> so we know that if we say that...
> we will get blocked too.
> hence if you don't want to get blocked...
> then don't say it.
> so the point in delivering the punisher...
> is so that people won't say that to one another on the forums.
> or they will say them less than they would if there wasn't a punisher after his having said that.
>
> thats how blocks benefit the forums as a whole.
>
> because we are all supposed to learn that that is not appropriate.
>
> and if peopple didn't say those kinds of things...
> the forum would be more supportive than if people did say those kinds of things...
>Now
That reminds me of a cartoon I saw:"I don't care if this is the first time you've been late to work in 30 years.. what would it be like if *everyone* was late for work?"
So there's no room at all for wisdom here.
It's like a computer.
The fact that Lar doesn't go around randomly calling people manipulative, and insulting people doesn't enter the picture.
As Dr. Bob always says "Two wrongs don't make a right"
>
> i don't see how larry was wronged...
>
Obviously.
> in dbt you have to committ to working towards reduction of SI.
> SI is typically the problem, yes.
> but if you do not commit to working on reducing it then you are kicked out of dbt.Committing to working on it....
So Larry after 3 years of posting here, who is relied upon for his support, and has never called someone names, has to commit to working on this issue..suddenly after 3 years.That's not even rational.
> if our mental health issues makes us prone to lashing out at others...
> then i guess we can make a committment to learning more appropriate ways of behaving...
> or we can persist...
> let the blocks stack up...
> get blocked for lengthy periods of time.
>
> yup.
>
Bob's way is not the authority on appropriateness or civility. He's the authority here.
> maybe because i was trying to hit upon a more charitable interpretation?
>
> maybe because... i accepted a more charitable interpretation once i found one?And somehow
Although I was offended and frustrated and angered .. and ready to leave the board because of that issue..this maybe.. this maybe that applies to you, that allowed you to avoid any punitive action
This maybe... with all it's extenuating circumstances and possible explanations does not apply to Larry.
That's unbelievable
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 22:56:27
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 20:17:03
>I was being facetious in the following paragraph. However I don't think that's considered okay here.
So if it isn't, sorry.> Larry who we all know is completely thoughtless, posts without thinking, and runs around like a crazed dog randomly insulting people just for the hell of it.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 23:03:10
In reply to oh » Gabbix2, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 22:56:27
((((gabbi)))))
(i have chosen to take deep breaths and step back so i won't be continuing our discussion...)
but i wanted to give you a hug.
we do fight sometimes...
sigh.
you know i love ya really - right?
xxx
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 23:15:37
In reply to oh » Gabbix2, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 22:56:27
facetious...(sp)
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 23:16:12
In reply to Re: oh, posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 23:03:10
yeah sis
We have an inexplicable bond.
It's a funny one. If we knew each other in real life we could have those spongy bats you know the ones you can hit someone over the head with, but not hurt them.
Every once in a while we'd just get up and silently bash each other on the head, and go back to our discussion.(((Alex)))
Posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 23:41:54
In reply to Re: oh » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 23:16:12
yeah...
or maybe we'd be like the simpsons when they were all hooked up to the electric shock thingie. they were able to give each other shocks but were supposed to learn not to shock each other (because they would only get shocked back)
they just kept shocking each other.
sigh.
of course they love each other really.
and i do love ya gabbi.but i think i do drive ya crazy at times...
i bet you would pull my hair ;-)i bet we would have been either inseperable or fighting rather vehemently...
probably from one to the other
sigh.
hmm.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 9, 2006, at 0:13:13
In reply to Re: oh » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 23:41:54
> yeah...
>>
> they just kept shocking each other.
>
*snort*
>
> of course they love each other really.
> and i do love ya gabbi.
>I love you too Alex, I do.
> but i think i do drive ya crazy at times...
> i bet you would pull my hair ;-)
>Well.. no, not really. It will never be like the way it was before.
Now it's sort of a mutual crazy driving..
With lengthy breaks in between.> i bet we would have been either inseperable or fighting rather vehemently...
>
> probably from one to the other
>> Yep.
Us at 7
"You're going to play with Alex? I thought you two hated each other"
"NO MOM! -sigh of disgust-That was *yesterday*
Posted by gardenergirl on January 9, 2006, at 0:38:28
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 8, 2006, at 17:49:46
> This is a real community to many and so being excommunicated can be devastating.
You know, others have said this many times before. I don't think I ever "got it" until now.
Maybe it was the Shakespeare. I'm a sucker for Shakespeare.
Or maybe it's because I recently really needed the community, and reached out in absolute certainty that somebody would "get it" with me and would reach back. Many someone's did. If I lost that absolute certainty and/or the ability to reach out and to be met with support, kindness, caring, and love, I think I would be devastated.
Thank you, Gabbi, for saying what you did. It made me think about the blocking issue in a new way.
gg
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 9, 2006, at 1:27:32
In reply to community » Gabbix2, posted by gardenergirl on January 9, 2006, at 0:38:28
Thank you so much GG.
Blocking is a drastic measure, I hate seeing it used just because it's there.
I've experienced the hurt myself, when I was blocked for 9 weeks.
It was a shock to me. I really had no idea I was even cutting things close. And there are many times I have suspected that I have : )
It's so easy to say one should have means of support other than an internet board.
Well, I'd just moved, was severely depressed, lived on my own, and didn't even have a phone, and so obviously couldn't afford therapy.
This *was* my support.I was picked up and rescued by a few here and they, well they may have saved my life, I don't know. I do know that I will never let myself get as close to babble as I did.
I know I *always* have the other support.I worry about those who don't. I think it's dangerous.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 2:59:22
In reply to Re: Larry's Block and a civil atmosphere » zeugma, posted by alexandra_k on January 8, 2006, at 14:40:06
> i think...
>
> that people might be thinking (consciously or unconsciously) that in order to show larry proper support... one must be mad at dr-bob...And/or others on "my" side?
I do think a problem with blocks, maybe because it's so black-and-white, being able to post vs. not, is that they can polarize the community. "Moderating" posters has been proposed before, but it would be too much for me. But what if another poster were willing to do that?
Bob
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 9, 2006, at 3:27:53
In reply to Re: showing larry proper support, posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 2:59:22
Dr. Bob
Maybe fairness would be more supportive?
This is at least the t hird time Alex has broken the D.N.P rule.. exactly the same way, including the apology.
Why still only one week?
I don't want more, I don't want more than that for just about anyone.
Larry Got 6 weeks, for posting to someone who asked him not to post to her, and doing that only ONCE
Alex does the same thing repeatedly and her block stays at one week..
Why?
..
Posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 9:16:34
In reply to Re: showing larry proper support » Dr. Bob, posted by Gabbix2 on January 9, 2006, at 3:27:53
Posted by wildcard on January 9, 2006, at 9:18:05
In reply to Re: showing larry proper support » Dr. Bob, posted by Gabbix2 on January 9, 2006, at 3:27:53
I thought so too but Dinah has a point also.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 9, 2006, at 10:07:44
In reply to Re: good question (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 9:16:34
Yeah, I'll get an answer like
"well little girl, because that's what I did"And I will grit my teeth.. and wonder why the heck I got drawn back in here when so many people get hurt by the rules
Psychobabble -- if you weren't crazy when you arrived.. just you wait til you try to make sense of the civility determinations!Ah Harold you were *so* right.
I goofed.
Posted by muffled on January 9, 2006, at 11:56:12
In reply to Re: showing larry proper support, posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 2:59:22
> > that people might be thinking (consciously or unconsciously) that in order to show larry proper support... one must be mad at dr-bob...
***I'm not mad at Dr. Bob, just wish there was an easier way.
>
> And/or others on "my" side?**OH OH, don't bring up the taking sides thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm a Mom!!!!!!!Naughty Bob.
>
> I do think a problem with blocks, maybe because it's so black-and-white, being able to post vs. not, is that they can polarize the community. "Moderating" posters has been proposed before, but it would be too much for me. But what if another poster were willing to do that?***YES!! What about a greater use of pbc's? before blocking? I dunno, guess there's a time factor too though.
Hmmmmmmmmm. Not so easy. My pea brain hurts.
Just what does 'moderating posters mean?'Muffled
Posted by spriggy on January 9, 2006, at 15:47:53
In reply to Ideas? » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on January 9, 2006, at 11:56:12
heard from him?
I can do nothing about his block except avoid this place myself until he returns or his block is either lifted or the time lessened.
I just think the entire thing is so unfair, I can do nothing else about my concern's but remove myself.
Posted by wildcard on January 9, 2006, at 16:29:46
In reply to well, I'm worried about Larry.. Has anyone, posted by spriggy on January 9, 2006, at 15:47:53
yeah and he seems like his old self. I'm reading my emails now ;-)
Posted by Deneb on January 9, 2006, at 17:07:32
In reply to well, I'm worried about Larry.. Has anyone, posted by spriggy on January 9, 2006, at 15:47:53
> heard from him?
>
> I can do nothing about his block except avoid this place myself until he returns or his block is either lifted or the time lessened.
>
> I just think the entire thing is so unfair, I can do nothing else about my concern's but remove myself.I'm heard from Larry. In fact, i spoke with him over the phone today. Larry is doing fine. He's more upset about how people are hurting over his block than anything else.
Deneb
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