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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 40 to 64 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 23:10:27
In reply to Re: Then I'm missing something » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 22:31:02
I didn't mean to poke you, Alexandra.
Part of what I was saying is literal. I will feel less able to post here, the only place outside my therapist that I'm likely to say anything at all, if I think that people will be annoyed with me for doing it. And if, God forbid, the reason I'm suicidal is that something, God forbid, happens to my therapist, then this is the only place I'm likely to say anything at all. So if I don't think I can say anything here, my thought processes would be that it would be better to just... Oh well, you get my point.
I was also trying to say that people don't have to post suicidal messages for others to be concerned about them. It's possibly not true about posters who are newly arrived on the boards, so that people don't know it's uncharacteristic for them not to post, but it almost definitely is true about people who post consistently then suddenly stop. Gracie springs to mind.
The distress level here can cause pain sometimes. There's no doubt about that. And people need to be able to judge what they can and can't handle for themselves, and skip over what they can't handle. I can't visit the grief board. Maybe you need to skip suicidal messages. Probably there are times when everyone needs to skip them. That's why it's good to have a big board.
With suicidal messages, perhaps the best way to disengage is to truly accept our own powerlessness on an ultimate level. We can try to help others, and we may or may not succeed. It isn't up to us.
(Unless Dr. Bob makes it possible for posters to contact ISP's)
I haven't heard from Smokey Madison, Alexandra. Maybe you can post on Social or Psychology and she or someone she's been in contact with can tell you more.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2005, at 0:01:14
In reply to Re: Then I'm missing something » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 23:10:27
> but it almost definitely is true about people who post consistently then suddenly stop. Gracie springs to mind.
Well Smokey is springing to my mind right now. She was a fairly consistent poster and she hasn't been around at all for a while. She has also turned her babblemail off (assuming it was on before)
> I haven't heard from Smokey Madison, Alexandra. Maybe you can post on Social or Psychology and she or someone she's been in contact with can tell you more.Done that already.
Nobody had any info.I don't know what to say...
It is true that people who are feeling suicidal typically aren't thinking very rationally...I have said what I think already in the posts above. There really isn't anything I have to add. But to draw your attention once again to the distinction (which may well be fuzzy) between ideation and urges. If you need support then sure, that is what the boards are about. If you want to inform us of your impending death then it is just my personal preferance that you place one hell of an obvious trigger warning on that thread.
BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO
and also
BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO IRL
and unless you need help getting up the courage to do that WHY POST IT HERE. How can that really be anything other than distressing to other posters?I don't know.
It isn't that I am heartless.
But sometimes there is only so much that one can listen to without getting infected with the same bug.
I personally find it to be contageous.
And the trouble is you have to read it to figure out what it says and it is only once you have figured out what it is saying that you know you shouldn't have read that.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2005, at 0:07:36
In reply to Re: Then I'm missing something » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 23:10:27
But anyway we have become distracted from the issue here.
It doesn't matter how I or anyone feels in response.
People will post what they will post.
And some people may be in a position to be helpful while others may not be.
(By posting support)
(By getting intervention)
Hell, I can go either way depending on how I am in myself.
I wish people wouldn't post that.
But then I wish people didn't feel like that.
But given that they do feel like that
What are they supposed to do?It would be nice if people could post about how they are feeling.
Rather than about what they are going to do
Or what they have done
(So support is appropriate rather than intervention)
But people will post what they will postYes, I think we should have the option to contact someones ISP.
Time could be of the essence
Posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2005, at 1:45:00
In reply to Re: Then I'm missing something, posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2005, at 0:07:36
Somewhere that could be kept safe (well, as safe as possible) for people in a fragile state.
Posted by cubic_me on March 7, 2005, at 5:25:38
In reply to Re: immediate concerns, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2005, at 14:49:36
>> I think that if the system of people being able to notify ISP providers was in place, I would hardly talk at all on these boards for fear of the police knocking on my door.
>>
>>cubic_me>What about me already being able to notify your ISP?
I think I was more saying that if any one (or two) people could cause the ISP to be contacted, I would feel much more vulnerable to it than if just you (Dr. Bob) had the authority to do it, as you, I am presuming, have had more training in assessing risk than many of the posters here.
>If you aren't really suicidal, you can just say so, and that would be nice for everyone to know...
If I only have ideation, I am always sure to put that - one of my pathologies is that I don't like to worry people! However someone could use this in a manipulative way, by saying for example 'I think I'm going to kill myself tonight, so just incase I do I want to say goodbye and thanks to x, x and z etc, but actually I'm pretty sure that this is ideation and I'm not going to do it'. In any case they have managed to say their intent and their goodbyes, without having the ISP contacted.
Posted by cubic_me on March 7, 2005, at 5:57:18
In reply to Re: immediate concerns » Dr. Bob, posted by cubic_me on March 7, 2005, at 5:25:38
I would certainly prefer someone to come here and say what they are about to do (or have done) than leave them completely alone in those awful feelings. Alex suggested that people would call 911 if they weren't allowed to post here, but many people's reason for posting here rather than anything else is that it is anonymous. I have never even thought about calling anyone IRL when I have been in that position - sometimes you are so confused you want someone here to suggest it to you, so that you know it is a valid option.
I think that trigger warnings should be mandatory on such posts, however. It is important that other posters/readers of the boards can protect themselves if they feel vulnerable.
Posted by Shame on March 7, 2005, at 9:37:37
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2005, at 9:28:17
Maybe I am alone here, but if someone is SERIOUS about bowing out, they do it. No questions, no cry for help. Cry-for-help type attempts are usually advertised somewhat more broadly than an anonymous message on an internet message board.Then there is the issue of how to tell if someone is suicidal over the net. Are we talking about an ourtight decleration, or a pattern of behavior?
Posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 9:52:36
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help, posted by Shame on March 7, 2005, at 9:37:37
I think you're underestimating the importance Babble plays in many people's lives, myself included.
I don't really think of Babble as being anonymous at all. People may know me as Dinah, not by my real name, but a fair number of people here know me very well indeed.
And I'm not sure you're right about not crying for help first. At the very least, physical cries for help can often lead to damage.
Posted by Shame on March 7, 2005, at 10:05:28
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help » Shame, posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 9:52:36
Well, I am new here and don't have a good feel for who is here, and what they are all about. I just know that when I was serious about taking my life, I certainly didn't share it with anyone, even my best friend of 25 years. Its when I get moody that people might think that I am in danger of hurting myself, when in reality I'm just coping with things. Suicide is somewhere WAY past that.
Posted by Broken on March 7, 2005, at 11:05:59
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help, posted by Shame on March 7, 2005, at 10:05:28
No offense intended by this post. It's a delicate issue, and I am more like a bull in a china shop.
However, to put it bluntly, if I were to the point of commiting suicide, and yes, I have attempted it before, then what is or is not "appropriate" to post on this or any other board would not concern me in the least.
When I made the attempt, I personally was being selfish to begin with. Scaring or upsetting someone else was not a concern. I will say this. I made no calls for help nor did I say any goodbyes, I was overwhelmed and just did it. Luckily, my girlfriend at the time did check on me, and that saved me.
Posted by Phillipa on March 7, 2005, at 15:50:09
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help, posted by Broken on March 7, 2005, at 11:05:59
It's interesting to note that there are differences in how men and women address suicide. Men have a tendency to use violent methods ie gun, while women are quite apt to overdose. Men are also more private, and not as willing to talk about feelings. That makes me wonder if when a man posts a suicide threat is he more apt to carry it out? But, the one's I've seen on PBabble have been from men. The only reason I've Posted this is that this was my experience when I worked in psych. I agree fully that a suicidal person does not care about others if they are serious about harming themselves. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 17:50:38
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help, posted by Phillipa on March 7, 2005, at 15:50:09
I've asked my husband to contact a particular Babbler if anything at all should happen to me. Just as he'll probably contact IRL friends. Should I ask her not to post anything?
I'm not just talking suicide here. I'm talking anything at all. Internet friends are real friends too.
Posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 18:03:34
In reply to Re: Then I'm missing something » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2005, at 0:01:14
Posted by cubic_me on March 8, 2005, at 2:47:19
In reply to Question, posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 17:50:38
I've asked my boyfriend to do that too. I have set up an email address that lists all the close contacts I have online, just incase.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 8, 2005, at 14:39:59
In reply to Question, posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 17:50:38
What do you mean "Should I ask her not to post anything?" Do you mean not inform us at all?
If course I'd want to know. And where to send flowers or your favorite charity. And where to show up for any memorial .....
But of course I'd want to find out that information many, many years from now.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 15:30:36
In reply to Question, posted by Dinah on March 7, 2005, at 17:50:38
Of course I'd want to know.
I am just the kind of person that doesn't much like to hear of others making a will or whatever.
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2005, at 16:52:47
In reply to Re: Question, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 15:30:36
The Thread is getting away from the original theme. Can we get back on Track? So, what should we do if someone is expressing suicidal ideation or intent on the Board? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:20:55
In reply to Re: Question, posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2005, at 16:52:47
Actually, this was the original track:
>I've been wondering about trying to enable concerned posters to notify a suicidal poster's Internet service provider. So it wouldn't depend so much on my availability. It would of course need to be set up carefully. Information that identified the suicidal poster wouldn't be disclosed to the concerned posters, for example. What do you think? Would that be overwhelming?
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2005, at 17:24:09
In reply to Re: Question » Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:20:55
Yeah Alexandra! Thanks. It just seemed like the Thread was headed somewhere else. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 17:49:09
In reply to Re: possibly being able to do more to help, posted by Shame on March 7, 2005, at 9:37:37
> BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO
> and also
> BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO IRL
>
> alexandra_k> Internet friends are real friends too.
>
> DinahRight, I guess one way to see it is that it would make this more like RL...
--
> if any one (or two) people could cause the ISP to be contacted, I would feel much more vulnerable to it than if just you (Dr. Bob) had the authority to do it
What if it couldn't just be any two? Only certain posters could be authorized, or more than two could be required...
> > If you aren't really suicidal, you can just say so, and that would be nice for everyone to know...
>
> someone could use this in a manipulative way, by saying for example 'I think I'm going to kill myself tonight, so just incase I do I want to say goodbye and thanks to x, x and z etc, but actually I'm pretty sure that this is ideation and I'm not going to do it'. In any case they have managed to say their intent and their goodbyes, without having the ISP contacted.
>
> cubic_meThat's an interesting scenario, might a notification in fact be justifiable in that case?
--
> if someone is SERIOUS about bowing out, they do it. No questions, no cry for help. Cry-for-help type attempts are usually advertised somewhat more broadly than an anonymous message on an internet message board.
>
> ShameMaybe so, but what if a particular poster isn't quite that serious and doesn't cry as loudly?
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2005, at 17:58:53
In reply to Re: making Internet friends more like real friends, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 17:49:09
There's only so much anyone can do. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 2:09:22
In reply to Re: making Internet friends more like real friends, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 17:49:09
> Right, I guess one way to see it is that it would make this more like RL...
Yeah. And that is a mixed blessing...
Posted by sleepygirl on January 10, 2006, at 2:23:53
In reply to I welcome my block Dr Bob if you choose to., posted by Nickengland on January 9, 2006, at 7:55:21
Dr. Bob you posted a link to the posting excerpt below recently. I'm curious about how this might be implemented. I can imagine it could be problematic in some ways, but I'm still curious. Can you tell us what might be possible with regard to the idea posted below??
>>I've been wondering about trying to enable concerned posters to notify a suicidal poster's Internet service provider. So it wouldn't depend so much on my availability. It would of course need to be set up carefully. Information that identified the suicidal poster wouldn't be disclosed to the concerned posters, for example. What do you think? Would that be overwhelming?
Posted by muffled on January 10, 2006, at 2:23:54
In reply to Dr. Bob - about informing ISP's, posted by sleepygirl on January 9, 2006, at 14:19:31
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:32:02
In reply to Dr. Bob - about informing ISP's, posted by sleepygirl on January 9, 2006, at 14:19:31
> I'm curious about how this might be implemented. I can imagine it could be problematic in some ways, but I'm still curious. Can you tell us what might be possible
In terms of what might be possible, maybe certain posters could be authorized to click a button, and if enough of them did, then the server would try to identify the ISP and send it an email?
See also the previous discussion...
Bob
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