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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 11:27:22
In reply to Lou's response to Angel Girl's post-clarification » Angel Girl, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 11:09:43
Lou
In all due respect, I feel that as a Christian that if I can not talk about Jesus Christ, then I interpret this rule to be discrimatory against my Faith. I would not feel put down by you posting what you believe, even though I know it would contrast my own beliefs. How are people of different faiths to communicate on a faith board if they can not talk about their beliefs? At any rate, seeing as talking about Jesus Christ is not allowed and I am a Christian, I will not be communicating on the faith board anymore.
Thanks for your replies.
AG
> AG,
> The guidlines of the faith board incorperate that posts that put down those of other faiths are not acceptable to be posted here. So would it matter if one wrote that people of their faith belived it or not if the statement in question put down those of other faiths?
> For instance, let us suppose that a supremist posted a supremist statement that put down those of other faiths. Do you think then that the post could be acceptable here if the statement had, "people of my faith believe..." in it? In your question here, it is my opinion, and I do not think, that the statement could be acceptable, in relation to the guidlines of the forum, even if "I believe" or "people of my faith believe" was put in the statement, even if statements of that nature have been left unaddressed here. For if it could be acceptable, then could not a supremist group post their doctrines here by writing that it is what the people in their group believe? There is a statement here by the moderator that it is fine to post what you believe as long as the statement does not put down those of other faiths.
> Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 11:54:02
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Angel Girl's post-clarification » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 11:27:22
AG,
In statements like,[...salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ...],IMO has the potential to put down those of other faiths according to the guidlines of the forum.
You wrote,[...if I can not talk about Jesus Christ...this rule to be discriminatory...].
Well, the rule is not that you can not talk about Jesus Christ, but the rule is that posts are not acceptable in relation to the guidlines of the forum [...if they put down those of other faiths...]. Now as to what constitutes what {puts down} those of other faiths can be seen in the past practice of posts that have been addressed by the administration as putting down those of other faiths and a search can bring them up.
In the case of your proposed post, it is my opinion, and I believe, that the proposed post is not acceptable in relation to the guidlines of the forum even if "I believe" or "people of my faith believe" is put in the post. This is my opinion. You could submit your proposed post to Dr. Hsiung and get a determination as to its acceptability or not. But if the foundation of a faith puts down those of other faiths,I believe that the guidlines of the forum make the post unacceptable.
Lou
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:03:44
In reply to Lou's reply to Angel Girl-salonly » Angel Girl, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 11:54:02
Lou
In all due respect, I think it is very common knowledge that Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity. Hence; the first 6 letters of the word CHRISTianity. Without Christ, Christianity would not exist. I consider myself to be very sensitive to the feelings of others, in fact, too much to my own detriment at times. If you were to post ANYTHING whatsoever of your beliefs, I would not feel offended and I do not understand why my talking about Christ being the way to MY salvation should lead others to feel put down. The world is comprised of many different religions each with their own set of beliefs. Are we to be offended should anyone mere mention what their own beliefs are? I am not telling someone of another religion that they must believe the same as what I do, I am only stating what *my* beliefs are. Surely, people of other faiths have heard the concept of what salvation is comprised of in Christianity.
Also, you mention that I could propose my question to Dr Bob. Lou, this thread IS directed to Dr Bob.
AG
> AG,
> In statements like,[...salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ...],IMO has the potential to put down those of other faiths according to the guidlines of the forum.
> You wrote,[...if I can not talk about Jesus Christ...this rule to be discriminatory...].
> Well, the rule is not that you can not talk about Jesus Christ, but the rule is that posts are not acceptable in relation to the guidlines of the forum [...if they put down those of other faiths...]. Now as to what constitutes what {puts down} those of other faiths can be seen in the past practice of posts that have been addressed by the administration as putting down those of other faiths and a search can bring them up.
> In the case of your proposed post, it is my opinion, and I believe, that the proposed post is not acceptable in relation to the guidlines of the forum even if "I believe" or "people of my faith believe" is put in the post. This is my opinion. You could submit your proposed post to Dr. Hsiung and get a determination as to its acceptability or not. But if the foundation of a faith puts down those of other faiths,I believe that the guidlines of the forum make the post unacceptable.
> Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 13:18:35
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Angel Girl-salonly » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:03:44
AG,
Hear are some examples of the past practice in relation to this discussion.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/280229.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/287534.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/290449.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/290895.htmlLou
Posted by Tabitha on January 11, 2005, at 13:31:02
In reply to Dr Bob - Questions about the faith board, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 10:14:30
If you go through the archives of the board you'll see what types of statements have gotten warnings or blocks from Dr Bob. That statement you quoted sounds to me like it would get somebody in trouble-- maybe he didn't see it? There are a couple posters who post strong Christian beliefs and have been blocked over and over. My understanding is that it's against the rules to state that one's faith is the only way, but of course that's one of the primary beliefs of some faiths, so if those people talk about that aspect of their faith they're going to get in trouble.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 13:40:22
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Angel Girl-salonly » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:03:44
AG,
You wrote,[...you mention that I could propose my question to Dr. Bob...this thread is directed to Dr. Bob..].
You wrote,[...I do not understand....the way to MY salvation should lead others to feel put down...].
Statements like,[...salvation can only be obtained through ...]have been in the past noted as unacceptable here for reasons that the statement of that nature has the potential to mean that since salvation is only through what is mentioned, that others that have their salvation through another means could feel put down, but not necessarrily, as you write that you would not feel put down by whatsoever of my beliefs.
Lou
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:43:15
In reply to Lou's reply to Angel Girl-pp » Angel Girl, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 13:18:35
Lou
Firstly, I must ask you, what does *salony* in your previous post title and *pp* in this one mean?
Secondly, the last two examples you have given me do not IMO, have anything to do with what I am talking about in my posts here. Both are definitely telling another poster that what they believe and are doing is wrong. I am NOT doing that whatsoever. I am not telling anyone that what they believe is wrong. What I am saying is what I believe to be right for ME. Anyone else can choose to believe whatever they want to. I am not telling you or any other poster that they must believe as I do.
Thirdly, Dr Bob replied, I think it was in the 2nd example, if I recall properly "The idea here is support, so please don't pressure others to adopt your beliefs or put them down for having theirs.". When have I pressured anyone to adopt my beliefs or put anyone down for having theirs? I have only stated what *I* believe. You or any other poster should not feel offended by my beliefs as I don't feel offended for anyone else stating theirs. I have never stated that anyone else MUST believe as I do. We all do what is right for each of us. I don't believe that you are understanding my point and I feel that I have stated it quite clearly. If I haven't, then I apologize, but I know of no other way to state what I feel is the obvious.
My intention is to not offend others or to tell others that what they believe is wrong or to tell them that they must believe the same as I do. That is why this world is comprised of several different faiths, so each of us can choose which beliefs we each feel comfortable with following.
I don't see how there is anything more I can say on this subject that I haven't already said.
Thanks for your concern. I'm sorry that I have appeared to offend you and possibly others. Again, that was never my intention and I have learned by posting this thread to Dr Bob, that the Faith board is not for me. I will make no more postings on there again.
AG
> AG,
> Hear are some examples of the past practice in relation to this discussion.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/280229.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/287534.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/290449.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030908/msgs/290895.htmlLou
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 13:52:32
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Angel Girl-pp » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:43:15
AG,
You asked me about the letters in the subject line.
In {salony}, these letters are my shorthand for {salvation only} which allows me to go back to the post if necessarry and know what it was about.
In {pp}, that is my shorthand for {past practice} which rells me what the post is about.
Sometimes I am in a discussion here that many people with many posts join in and it becomes necessarry some times to referr to previous posts and this helps me to find them.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 13:57:54
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Angel Girl-pp » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:43:15
AG,
You wrote about the examples. In the first example,the poster writes,[...I sincerely believe that ...the one true church...].
The point that I wanted to bring up here in this post is that the poster wrote that they {...believed...}. But that did not make the post acceptable.
Lou
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 14:01:06
In reply to Lou's reply to Angel Girl-yputdwn » Angel Girl, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 13:40:22
Tabitha and Lou
NEVER NEVER NEVER have I said the word ONLY in my sample. I stated that it was MY belief. I realize that there are posters who do not share my belief and they are free IMO to post whatever they believe and I will not get offended. Obviously, I can see that others will.
Also, Tabitha, Dr Bob did not miss that sample I gave. I merely, used it as a sample from ME. Sorry, if I confused you or anyone else.
I do not understand why the word ONLY is always quoted in response to my sample. I never once used the word *only* in my sample.
As I have at least twice now previously said, the faith board is not for me or else I would be as the other 2 posters that you Tabitha have quoted as saying are quite often in trouble for posting their beliefs.
It is impossible to talk about Christianity without talking about Christ and who He is. He is the entire basis of the Christianity faith.
I will make no further comments on this thread. I've said all I intend to. I think I have made myself abundantly clear, although I do not feel that I am getting my point across very well. Obviously, that is my loss.
Thanks,
AG
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 14:03:43
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Angel Girl-pp » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:43:15
AG,
The second example brings out the concept of the guidlines that {some aspects of some beliefs are unacceptable here to be posted} and was intended by me for discussion purposes here.
Lou
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 14:09:13
In reply to Lou's reply to Angel Girl-smasofsmbelefs » Angel Girl, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 14:03:43
I stand corrected. In re-reading my example, I did use the word "ONLY". I apologize for my previous comments regarding the quoting of this word.
However, this does not change my thoughts on this subject whatsoever. I stand by everything else I have said.
Thanks,
AG
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2005, at 14:18:10
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Angel Girl-yputdwn, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 14:01:06
AG,
Reasonable people can have misunderstandings and I believe that the misunderstandings here could be cleared up.
I do respect your statement that you,[...will make no further comment on this thread...]. I believe that people can change their mind though, so if you do, I will be appreciative of your return.
Lou
Posted by verne on January 11, 2005, at 18:13:17
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Angel Girl's post to Dr. Hsiung- » Lou Pilder, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 11:01:50
If we can't make posts affirming our religion because it probably contradicts someone elses, I agree with Angel Girl - what's left to post? What's the purpose of such a message board?
Why not have a "Silence" Board while we are at it?
verne
Posted by Jai Narayan on January 11, 2005, at 18:48:46
In reply to What's the Purpose of the Faith Board? » Angel Girl, posted by verne on January 11, 2005, at 18:13:17
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 11, 2005, at 20:48:24
In reply to Dr Bob - Questions about the faith board, posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 10:14:30
> Comments are posted as facts. Shouldn't they be started with "I believe" or "In my faith" or something similiar?
>
> Example:
>
> Salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
>
> Should it not be better written as
>
> I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
>
> OR
>
> As a Christian, I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.I agree, that's better, but posts like that could still be problematic, for example:
> I believe that everyone should obtain salvation through Jesus Christ.
Using for guidance the examples at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7889.html
Then these would be OK:
> I believe that my salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
>
> People of my faith believe that their salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.And these wouldn't:
> Salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
>
> I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.Does that make any sense? Sorry it gets so complicated,
Bob
Posted by verne on January 11, 2005, at 21:03:06
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board, posted by Dr. Bob on January 11, 2005, at 20:48:24
Then the rules overshadow the purpose.
Perhaps that, too, is part of the experiment.
verne
Posted by Angel Girl on January 12, 2005, at 0:02:22
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board, posted by Dr. Bob on January 11, 2005, at 20:48:24
Dr Bob
I am still confused. Could you please give further clarification. In the link you provided you wrote:
1. In general, these would be OK:
I believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.Dr. Bob, how does the statement above that you deemed as ok differ from my example below which you deemed as problematic?
> >
> > As a Christian, I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
>
> I agree, that's better, but posts like that could still be problematicI am not telling other posters that they need to believe the same as I do, I am merely stating what MY faith's beliefs are and to even further my confusion you wrote:
>
> Then these would be OK:
>
> > I believe that my salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
> >
> > People of my faith believe that their salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
It appears to me that there is a VERY VERY fine line here. The only difference that I am seeing in your examples to mine are the use of the word *my* and *their*. BUT in my statement, even though those words are not present, they are implied by the beginning of my statement starting with "As a Christian". I think adding the words *my* or *their* is redundant. With all due respect, I think we are really nit-picking at words here. I totally respect the beliefs of other posters and I honestly do not see why anyone should be offended by my example. I am stating what the Christian belief is. I am not stating whether it is right or wrong or whether anybody else's beliefs are right or wrong, nor am I telling any other poster of a different faith that they must believe as I do.Also, if another poster were to state what their beliefs are, I would not be offended. They are merely stating what THEY believe. Whether or not it agrees with my beliefs or not is irrelevant as long as I don't attack their beliefs and tell them they are wrong. As example, I started this thread:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20041120/msgs/436799.html
Even though I do not believe the same things as what was replied to me, I did not make any comment in that regard. I do not understand how that thread differs from my example above.
I think we should all have the freedom to say what our *own* beliefs are, if not, what is left to talk about on the Faith board?
Again, I am not telling posters that their beliefs are wrong or that they have to believe the same thing as I do. I am only stating what my Christian belief is, just like my thread that I have quoted where Jewish posters are telling me what their beliefs are.
Do you see where my confusion is and could you please help me to understand this better.
Thanks,
AG
Posted by Angel Girl on January 12, 2005, at 11:48:25
In reply to What's the Purpose of the Faith Board? » Angel Girl, posted by verne on January 11, 2005, at 18:13:17
verne
Thank you for seeing my point. BTW, I think you may be onto something there with that new board you're suggesting. ;)
AG
> If we can't make posts affirming our religion because it probably contradicts someone elses, I agree with Angel Girl - what's left to post? What's the purpose of such a message board?
>
> Why not have a "Silence" Board while we are at it?
>
> verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2005, at 20:54:25
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board » Dr. Bob, posted by Angel Girl on January 12, 2005, at 0:02:22
> It appears to me that there is a VERY VERY fine line here.
Yes, I think so, too.
Bob
Posted by Angel Girl on January 12, 2005, at 22:08:11
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2005, at 20:54:25
Dr. Bob
Could you please look at the examples that I have shown you in my last post directed to you in this thread and address them please so that I may have better understanding of what is deemed acceptable and what is not.
AG
> > It appears to me that there is a VERY VERY fine line here.
>
> Yes, I think so, too.
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2005, at 0:44:24
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board » Dr. Bob, posted by Angel Girl on January 12, 2005, at 0:02:22
> The only difference that I am seeing in your examples to mine are the use of the word *my* and *their*. BUT in my statement, even though those words are not present, they are implied by the beginning of my statement starting with "As a Christian". I think adding the words *my* or *their* is redundant.
Why would "as a Christian" imply "my"? Is there a downside to being explicit?
Bob
Posted by Angel Girl on January 13, 2005, at 8:22:25
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board, posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2005, at 0:44:24
Dr Bob
This is my original statement that you deemed problematic but I feel should be acceptable.
As a Christian, I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ
Can you please tell me what is problematic about it. I am only stating that I am a Christian and that as such, that is what *I* believe. In no way am I putting others down for their own beliefs or telling them that they have to believe the same. What others belief is up to them.
I also would see no problem in writing:
Christians believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
Please explain to me where there is anything wrong in my 2 above samples.
AG
>
> Why would "as a Christian" imply "my"? Is there a downside to being explicit?
>
> Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 13, 2005, at 17:10:35
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board » Dr. Bob, posted by Angel Girl on January 13, 2005, at 8:22:25
AG be ready its such a fine fine line I am curious as to what he has to say cause I see zero wrong with your statements that IS what Christians think..believe....by definition one who belives in Jesus Christ is a Christian :)
> Dr Bob
>
> This is my original statement that you deemed problematic but I feel should be acceptable.
>
> As a Christian, I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ
>
> Can you please tell me what is problematic about it. I am only stating that I am a Christian and that as such, that is what *I* believe. In no way am I putting others down for their own beliefs or telling them that they have to believe the same. What others belief is up to them.
>
> I also would see no problem in writing:
>
> Christians believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ.
>
> Please explain to me where there is anything wrong in my 2 above samples.
>
> AG
>
> >
> > Why would "as a Christian" imply "my"? Is there a downside to being explicit?
> >
> > Bob
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 13, 2005, at 18:06:03
In reply to Re: examples for the faith board » Angel Girl, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 13, 2005, at 17:10:35
Friends,
It has been written that a statement like,[...as a Christian, I believe that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus Christ...] could be in accordance with the guidlines of the faith board here.
As I see this statement, and those like it, there are two issues IMO that are [...problematic...].
The first issue is, does it fall in the catagory of Jean Jacques Rousseau's statement on the opening page of the faith board that [..Whosoever dares say ,Outside the Church there is no salvation...]. Well, looking at the statement , it writes that[... salvation can {only} be obtained through Jesus Christ...]. Now if the potential is there to consider that the statement thearfore also means that jews could possibly not get salvation, or others that consider their salvation to be obtained by some other means than through Jesus Christ, then does the statement in question put those of those faiths down? My answer depends on what is defined as [...putting down...]. The past practice in the archives can give that definition clarity.
The next issue as I see it, is whether the poster that posted the post believes it or not. Well, if some foundations of some faiths can not be posted, and if this statement in question is a foundation of a faith that can not be posted, could the fact that one believes it or not be relevant to the statement's acceptability or not here? My answer is that it depends. It depends on whether other foundations of other faiths are not allowed to be posted here that have similar meaning. IMO, if one posted,[...only people that are members of the ...] are the true believers and are the only ones going to heaven..], if that was posted, would whether the poster believed it or not have any determination as to it's acceptability or not? If so, what could prevent a segregationist from posting racist statements here? Or a supremist posting supremist statements? Is it not the {foundation} that is what is determined as acceptable or not?
When we look at the statement in question,[..as a Christion...salvation only through Jesus Christ...], one could be convinced by many sources that the statement is true. But I ask all hear to consider the following conversation that I have had many times with persons that say that to me.
The converstion usually starts with , Lou, your not saved because the jews do not believe in Jesus. The Bible says,[...Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, wherby we must be saved...].
They usually go on and say, [...we are saved by grace... we do not deserve salvation... you can only be forgiven by God by beliveing in Jesus...if you do not accept Jesus you will not be saved...].
My answer has been as follows:
My friend, are you going to heaven?
"Yes", they answer.
I ask , "Do you deserve to go to heaven?
"No", they say and say, [..all fall short of the glory of God, but by God's grace alone, through Christ, I receive the fullness of the Father's blessings...].
Very well, I say, But if God can be gracious to you and give you blessings that you say that you do not deserve, could He not do likewise with the Jews, for His own reasons as yet unbeknowest to you?
Lou
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