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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by verne on November 30, 2004, at 18:52:40
In reply to post-iotatas » Lou Pilder, posted by Toph on November 30, 2004, at 9:27:09
Toph,
I don't think you did anything wrong using the word "holocaust". The word has been around long before what's referred to as "The Holocaust".
Reminds me of the director Spike Lee (is that his name?) who sued the Spike TV channel for rights to the word "spike". He was serious.
He lost of course. The results would have been holocaustic. We could no longer "spike" the ball in volleyball, drive a spike on the railroad, spike a drink, or just use the word "spike" when we ran out of vocabulary.
verne
Posted by henrietta on November 30, 2004, at 19:08:56
In reply to Spike the Ball » Toph, posted by verne on November 30, 2004, at 18:52:40
I find this post extremely offensive.
Posted by henrietta on November 30, 2004, at 19:13:47
In reply to Re: Toph-fer-extrm's reply to » Toph, posted by Noa on November 29, 2004, at 19:38:17
Noa,
Thank you for an eloquent and thoughtful addition to this discussion.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 30, 2004, at 19:39:52
In reply to Re: Toph-fer-extrm's reply to, posted by henrietta on November 30, 2004, at 19:13:47
> Noa,
> Thank you for an eloquent and thoughtful addition to this discussion.I'd like to thank Noa too, for making me think (I like that!) I didn't pause for a second at Tophs comparison, and agree that it wasn't his intention to trivialize the holocaust, however Noa's post will ensure that I never become numb to such an analogy again.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2004, at 22:04:22
In reply to Lou's summery toDr.Hsiung-procedure to halt thread, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 13:56:25
Lou,
I've been thinking about your proposal, and I have a similar concern as pegasus. I don't think putting a halt on a thread would keep people from posting similar-styled posts on a new thread. It may serve to only create many more similar threads on one board.Also, I can tell from past posts that you wish Dr. Bob would respond to your requests faster than he does sometimes. And I know he has missed some of them as well. I just think a 12 hour window is way too short to allow for someone who also has a day job to get to his adminstrative tasks here on Babble. Heck, I can't even reply to all my emails in a couple of days sometimes, let alone a number of hours. And I suspect Dr. Bob's day job is busier than mine at the moment (although I could be busier if I didn't procrastinate so much!)
Anyway, I just wanted to post my concern about taking further action after 12 hours have passed (regarding your proposal in another thread), and about putting a halt to threads. The latter doesn't sound necessary or feasible to me.
I do realize that you care very much about making Babble a better place, and although I don't agree with your current suggestions, I do admire your caring.
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 22:25:18
In reply to Re: Lou's summery toDr.Hsiung-procedure to halt thread » Lou Pilder, posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2004, at 22:04:22
gg,
You wrote,[...I don't think that putting a halt on a thread would keep people from posting similar...].
I propose that we have an experiment to find out if that will happen. I belive that the posting of a halt by another poster could be a "clue' to those in the thread to modify their posts in a new thread and that there is the posibility that a new thread will be extinct of the posts that were in the old thread that could have been of the nature that they are innapropriate on a mental health forum.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 22:50:34
In reply to Re: Lou's summery toDr.Hsiung-procedure to halt thread » Lou Pilder, posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2004, at 22:04:22
gg,
You wrote,[...12 hour window...].
My revised suggestion had no time period. In my suggestion, a poster could post a halt at any time.
The prpose of the halt,IMO, is to prevent further posts of the same nature.
I think that a try at this could not cause any harm, but others may have differant opinions.
Lou
Posted by verne on November 30, 2004, at 22:53:18
In reply to Re: Spike the Ball, posted by henrietta on November 30, 2004, at 19:08:56
I'm not trivializing The Holocaust but object to a kind of reverse hyper-sensitive racism that bullies others who don't share their beliefs.
We will never run out of reasons to build monuments and memorials to those who were murdered in atrocities. But why stop there? If we are setting aside words, let's set aside half our language for the millions massacred in Cambodia, Laos, Ruwanda and countless other places. And what about the millions of ukranians and gypsies murdered in WWII? Every life is precious. Let's memorialize and remember them ALL.
The Nazis exterminated millions of Communists, Czechs, Greeks, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, mentally and physically handicapped, Poles, resistance fighters, Russians, Serbs, Socialists, Spanish Republicans, trade unionists, Ukrainians, Yugoslavians, prisoners of war of many nations, and still others whose identity may never be recognized.(1) Their victims, according to one survivor of four different concentration camps, "were of some thirty nationalities, from Nepalese to Andorrans, and of a variety of racial and linguistic stocks ranging from Basques to Buriats and from Ladinos to Lapps".(2) When people were not immediately exterminated, they were sent to work and/or concentration camps. There the prisoners were divided into six penal categories and given patches on their clothing for identification purposes. Ordinary criminals were assigned green; political prisoners wore red; black was worn by asocials (slackers, prostitutes, procurers, etc.); homosexuals wore pink; conscientious objectors wore purple, and the Jewish people wore yellow."
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust:
Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others UnknownWhy is it allright when Mel Brooks makes outrageous movies parodying the vilest atrocities - including the Holocaust - but deep offense is taken when the mere word is mentioned elsewhere? Where's the offense with "Blazing Saddles" or "The Producers"?
Would it be politically incorrect to say that I lost a GYPSY relative in the Holocaust and an aunt on the 110th floor on 9/11? Or doesn't that rate?
Being offended has become an art form.
verne
Posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2004, at 22:56:30
In reply to Lou's reply to garden girl-12 horwndw » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 22:50:34
It's hard to say if a trial could cause harm. I just am concerned that posters could "halt" all kinds of threads, causing chaos and confusion. Not to mention hurt feelings.
And call me cynical, but I wonder if people would really change their behavior if someone else called a halt to their thread. I can conceive of how some might continue out of spite.
My own experiment is to personally ask those who are upsetting to me to cease and desist in as civil a way as I can. I haven't had a great deal of reason to use this technique, but so far so good...although I can't take any credit if behavior changes. I think it's perfectly reasonable for others to make a direct and civil request to someone, although the outcome is not guaranteed, of course.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 30, 2004, at 22:59:31
In reply to Lou's reply to garden girl-12 horwndw » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 22:50:34
Lou,
I'm not sure if your revised proposal is a revision of this original request:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/421736.htmlor of the first post suggesting a halt.
My comment about a 12 hour window was about the post I linked above. I did not mean to imply to others or to you that you were advocating a 12 hour window on halts.
gg
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 30, 2004, at 23:03:43
In reply to An art form?, posted by verne on November 30, 2004, at 22:53:18
Toph never referred to "a holocaust" he referred to Auchwitz.
Posted by verne on November 30, 2004, at 23:30:45
In reply to Re: An art form? » verne, posted by Gabbix2 on November 30, 2004, at 23:03:43
That would be a different matter. I just assumed by the responses that he had used the word "holocaust". My mistake. I guess I should read the entire thread.
Goes to show, I don't need much thread to hang myself.
verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 30, 2004, at 23:53:53
In reply to Re: An art form? » Gabbix2, posted by verne on November 30, 2004, at 23:30:45
>I guess I should read the entire thread.I have done that soooooooooo many times.
I've gotten quite good at apologizing : )
Posted by verne on December 1, 2004, at 1:17:35
In reply to Re: An art form? » verne, posted by Gabbix2 on November 30, 2004, at 23:53:53
Backtracking, I think Toph was simply trying to illustrate how Dr. Bob's blocking policies resembled the way the Nazis selected who would live or die.
I agree completely. I'm also reminded of the Seinfeld character, the "Soup Nazi". I never thought I would meet one in real life until I arrived at this site. Dr. Bob makes the character come to life.
verne
Posted by AuntieMel on December 1, 2004, at 8:53:52
In reply to Re: An art form?, posted by verne on December 1, 2004, at 1:17:35
Please read and reread Noa's response.
Lou isn't the only one with strong personal feelings about this topic. Count me in, too.
Even Toph has rethought what he said. You are right that he was trying to illustrate a point. It's just that there are other ways.
It's one thing to be "right." It is another to insist on being "right" even if you know you are offending someone. I think Toph - to his credit - believes this too.
Posted by Toph on December 1, 2004, at 11:23:44
In reply to Re: An art form? » verne, posted by AuntieMel on December 1, 2004, at 8:53:52
This tread is regrettable for a number of reasons. I regret that I got so frustrated with Bob for not responding promptly to my request that he reconsider his sanction of Susan. This prompted me to use an extreme example of injustice to illustrate my point. Unfortunately, I offended people by comparing a sensitve topic with something so trivial as being unfairly blocked from PB. I hope people believed my apology was sincere.
I regret that I also discounted Lou's offense, dismissing it as "just Lou, crying wolf again." Noa's post set me straight.
While I appreciate verne's support, I regret that others who do not know him as a serious, thoughtful person may misread the points he has attempted to make.
What I do not regret is that the thread was allowed to proceed and was not halted as someone suggested. Without Bob's intervention, it allowed important sensitive issues to be discussed and worked out.
-Toph
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 1, 2004, at 11:44:26
In reply to Regrets, posted by Toph on December 1, 2004, at 11:23:44
Toph,
You wrote,[...I regret tnat I also discounted Lou's offense, dismissing it as "Just Lou crying wolf again"...].
Could you explain what you mean by {Lou''s offense}? and could you also give an example of what you are referring to as {Lou [crying wolf]?}.If you could, then I could have theopportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Toph on December 1, 2004, at 12:35:11
In reply to Lou's response to Toph- » Toph, posted by Lou Pilder on December 1, 2004, at 11:44:26
> Toph,
> You wrote,[...I regret tnat I also discounted Lou's offense, dismissing it as "Just Lou crying wolf again"...].
> Could you explain what you mean by {Lou''s offense}? and could you also give an example of what you are referring to as {Lou [crying wolf]?}.If you could, then I could have theopportunity to respond accordingly.
> LouI'm sorry Lou, I wasn't very clear there, I meant when you objected to my analogy instead of 'Lou's offense'.
Posted by Noa on December 1, 2004, at 15:57:56
In reply to Re: Toph-fer-extrm's reply to, posted by Toph on November 30, 2004, at 8:49:51
Thank you, Toph. I knew you'd understand.
Posted by Noa on December 1, 2004, at 16:02:03
In reply to Re: Toph-fer-extrm's reply to » Noa, posted by NikkiT2 on November 30, 2004, at 12:47:48
Yes--of course that makes sense. And, I agree--I am not sure whether locking threads is a good idea either.
In a case like this, I think clarifying with each other can work, and I think it did.
Posted by Noa on December 1, 2004, at 16:05:48
In reply to Lou's reply to pegasus- » pegasus, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 15:52:44
>...But could there be some introspection by the posters in the thread, after the halt is posted, that could, perhaps, alter the new posts in the new thread?
Perhaps, but I think introspection can also happen from other strategies, such as in the exchange between me and Toph.
Posted by verne on December 1, 2004, at 17:21:14
In reply to Regrets, posted by Toph on December 1, 2004, at 11:23:44
I wish I hadn't jumped in mid-thread. I was blind drunk and hadn't really read most of the preceding posts.
Toph, thanks for the kind words and understanding. I'm often misunderstood. I can "agree" with someone and still manage to start a fight - especially if I've been drinking. I start shooting from the hip (I've never owned a gun, so believe me when I say that's strictly a metaphor).
I'm sorry if I made things worse for you or offended anybody. I've been wanting to take a break from babble and fell on my sword. Imagine how surprised I was when I still had a babble pulse the next morning.
I think I need a break and would welcome a block. But I shouldn't take others with me or start a riot on my way out.
verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 1, 2004, at 19:37:22
In reply to Add my Regrets » Toph, posted by verne on December 1, 2004, at 17:21:14
> I wish I hadn't jumped in mid-thread. I was blind drunk and hadn't really read most of the preceding posts.
>
> Toph, thanks for the kind words and understanding. I'm often misunderstood.It would take a whole lot more than this to make me think you are insensitive. I find your thoughts interesting and often pointedly insightful. No one is here because they are perfect!
Posted by Noa on December 1, 2004, at 20:06:09
In reply to The halting procedure- » Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2004, at 7:52:02
>I will ask noa's permission to do so first.
I appreciate both the compliment about my post as well as the courtesy you mention of asking permission in order to circulate or publish my post. Truly, I am flattered and I'm glad that I was able to express something in a way that you appreciated.
But I really prefer that my post not be circulated anywhere. It is just something that is part of this conversation here, nothing more really.
Thanks, Lou.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 1, 2004, at 20:42:02
In reply to Add my Regrets » Toph, posted by verne on December 1, 2004, at 17:21:14
> I wish I hadn't jumped in mid-thread. I was blind drunk and hadn't really read most of the preceding posts.
**okay, verne what were you drinking? Beer? What does blind drunk mean?
>
> I'm sorry if I made things worse for you or offended anybody. I've been wanting to take a break from babble and fell on my sword. Imagine how surprised I was when I still had a babble pulse the next morning.**verne you are so funny. I love this last statement.
>
> I think I need a break and would welcome a block. But I shouldn't take others with me or start a riot on my way out.** you want to start a riot?
My goodness you make me lighten up when I am sad or uptight.
If you need to take a break, I can accept that, I will miss you.
Jai
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