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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
In reply to Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 14:02:57
I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
Thanks,
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 15:51:22
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
> I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
> Larhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htm
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:03:49
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 15:51:22
> > I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lar
>
> http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/28/high-fat-diet-linked-to-depression-anxiety-in-mice/39295.html
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htmThanks for your speedy reply. I was actually looking for a correlation in humans.
I was already aware of this rodent research, but it is inconsistent across studies. I can show you a rodent study where increasing fat decreased depression.
I also want to point out that these studies all have a confounding variable. They assume that the carb intake is irrelevant. At least in humans, carb intake has to be somewhere around 10-20% or less, for the effects of varying fat composition to be clearly observable.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:05:08
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
> I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
> Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:09:53
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:03:49
> > > I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Lar
> >
> > http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/28/high-fat-diet-linked-to-depression-anxiety-in-mice/39295.html
> >
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htm
>
> Thanks for your speedy reply. I was actually looking for a correlation in humans.
>
> I was already aware of this rodent research, but it is inconsistent across studies. I can show you a rodent study where increasing fat decreased depression.
>
> I also want to point out that these studies all have a confounding variable. They assume that the carb intake is irrelevant. At least in humans, carb intake has to be somewhere around 10-20% or less, for the effects of varying fat composition to be clearly observable.
>
> LarI'm not sure you will ever have a proper human trial to see if high fat feeding causes depression. It would be cruel.
Please show me a reference to a rodent trial showing a high fat diet reduces depression.
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:59:24
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:09:53
> I'm not sure you will ever have a proper human trial to see if high fat feeding causes depression. It would be cruel.
Observational studies are possible, but nobody ever properly conducted a study that controlled carbs while controlling fat. I found a bunch of improper studies, but they lumped refined carbs in with fried foods, and red meat. Hopelessly confounded. But depression was associated with those inflammatory markers, nonetheless. It was the attribution of that marker to fat that was flawed.
The studies I first referenced make clear that the inflammatory markers are not caused by high fat intake, but arise from refined carbs. Recent work has broken the confound.
One of the clearest blood variables associated with depression is high-density lipo-protein. When HDL is low, depression is high. And that is a marker of a high-carb diet. HDL is highest on high-fat diets.
> Please show me a reference to a rodent trial showing a high fat diet reduces depression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22313665
Honestly, though, I don't put much faith in these rodent studies. We are not rodents. And they did not control for carbs.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 17:08:43
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:59:24
I agree there are conflicting studies on whether a high fat diet causes depression in rodents.
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 17:15:41
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:59:24
> The studies I first referenced make clear that the inflammatory markers are not caused by high fat intake, but arise from refined carbs. Recent work has broken the confound.
>This review highlights the inflammatory and insulin-antagonizing effects of saturated fatty acids (SFA), which contribute to the development of metabolic syndrome.
Several studies have demonstrated potential health benefits of substituting SFA with unsaturated FA, particularly oleic acid and (n-3) FA. Thus, reducing consumption of foods rich in SFA and increasing consumption of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, lean meats and poultry, fish, low-fat dairy products, and oils containing oleic acid or (n-3) FA is likely to reduce the incidence of metabolic disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056664
"Conventionally raised specific-pathogen free (CONV) and germ-free (GF) mice were given HF or low fat (LF) diet for 216 weeks. Body weight and adiposity were measured. In CONV but not GF mice, HF diet induced increases in body weight and adiposity."
"Bacteria and HF diet interact to promote proinflammatory changes in the small intestine, which precede weight gain and obesity and show strong and significant associations with progression of obesity and development of insulin resistance. To our knowledge, this is the first evidence that intestinal inflammation is an early consequence of HF diet which may contribute to obesity and associated insulin resistance. Interventions which limit intestinal inflammation induced by HF diet and bacteria may protect against obesity and insulin resistance."
"Clearly the bowel bacteria have a role to play in increasing inflammation with a high fat diet. The implication is that it is the high fat diets affect on the bacteria that causes inflammation and subsequent depression, not the high fat diet itself. If I can maintain bifidobacteria numbers I may be able to avoid any inflammation from a high fat diet."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012191
C57BL/6J and TLR4-deficient C57BL/10ScNJ mice were maintained on a low-fat (10 kcal % fat) diet (LFD) or a highfat (60 kcal % fat) diet (HFD) for 8 weeks.
HFD induced macrophage infiltration and inflammation in the adipose tissue, as well as an increase in the circulating proinflammatory cytokines. Furthermore, HFD induced colonic inflammation, including the increased expression of proinflammatory cytokines, the induction of Toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4), iNOS, COX-2, and the activation of NF-κB in the colon.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 18:18:48
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 17:15:41
> > The studies I first referenced make clear that the inflammatory markers are not caused by high fat intake, but arise from refined carbs. Recent work has broken the confound.
> >Unfortunately, you still have not appreciated the point I've been trying to make. Let me try again.
The combination of high fat/high carb is very unhealthy. It leads to all those inflammatory responses that we know contribute to a host of diseases.
Traditionally, studies have ignored carbohydrates in the dietary analysis. If you control for that variable, you see the real problem, which is that insulin changes all the body's metabolic parameters adversely.
If you provide a high-fat diet, but compare it under two conditions, low-carb, and high-carb, you will find that only the high-fat/high-carb combination leads to adverse effects. In fact, the high-fat/low-carb diet also has superior outcomes when compared to low-fat diets of any format.
> This review highlights the inflammatory and insulin-antagonizing effects of saturated fatty acids (SFA), which contribute to the development of metabolic syndrome.
>
> Several studies have demonstrated potential health benefits of substituting SFA with unsaturated FA, particularly oleic acid and (n-3) FA. Thus, reducing consumption of foods rich in SFA and increasing consumption of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, lean meats and poultry, fish, low-fat dairy products, and oils containing oleic acid or (n-3) FA is likely to reduce the incidence of metabolic disease.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056664This review does not consider the carb intake, which is never controlled scientifically. They mis-attribute the adverse findings to fat, when the independent variable responsible for the adverse outcomes is high-carbs. And they interpret everything in this misleading way.
For example, the main study blames saturated fat intake for crap happening, but this is what the underlying reference actually says:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18394213?dopt=Abstract
"Most studies (twelve of fifteen) found no effect relating to fat quality on insulin sensitivity. However, multiple study design flaws limit the validity of this conclusion. In contrast, one of the better designed studies found that consumption of a high-saturated-fat diet decreased insulin sensitivity in comparison to a high-monounsaturated-fat diet."> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012191
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Both of these are: rodent studies; ignore carbohydrate effects; measure the situation after the carb-induced damage is done. I reiterate, a high-fat diet is only dangerous if it is also high-carb.
When a "traditional" diet study compares the high-fat and low-fat diet, they usually don't specify the carbs. But if they do, it is never equivalent to the carb-restricted diets I've been referencing. You have to take insulin out of the picture, or you've got a confounded (meaningless) study, in the context of the fat.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 18:18:48
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:13:43
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
This is a very interesting exchange.
I am not as educated as you when it comes to this stuff - not nearly. However, what Larry has said makes a great deal of sense to me. Carbohydrate/insulin dynamics seem relevant to obesity, metabolic syndrome, and perhaps depression via inflammatory responses. I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:15:58
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
>
> http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=nutrisci_etds&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsaturated%2520fats%2520intestine%2520bacteria%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D39%26ved%3D0CGEQFjAIOB4%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fuknowledge.uky.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1005%2526context%253Dnutrisci_etds%26ei%3DNXbSUPe4D4qZiAf024AI%26usg%3DAFQjCNHfN1XEovpn4xkDtV2RcDCLcAOUxA%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dGY#search=%22saturated%20fats%20intestine%20bacteria%22
>I just checked and in the last study (thesis) the high fat fed mice were on 20% calories from carbs.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:19:55
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
Very interesting citations.
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
>
> http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=nutrisci_etds&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsaturated%2520fats%2520intestine%2520bacteria%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D39%26ved%3D0CGEQFjAIOB4%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fuknowledge.uky.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1005%2526context%253Dnutrisci_etds%26ei%3DNXbSUPe4D4qZiAf024AI%26usg%3DAFQjCNHfN1XEovpn4xkDtV2RcDCLcAOUxA%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dGY#search=%22saturated%20fats%20intestine%20bacteria%22
>
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2012, at 21:53:16
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:19:55
Hard or soft boiled eggs are natures best complete protein. I need to get back into this type of eating again. Phillipa
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:00:03
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
I gave you some excellent full-text articles involving humans in this post, my second in this thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20121217/msgs/1033789.html
I have more, if you want them.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:03:51
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
If they are rodent studies (rodents eat a lot of seeds/grain), and/or they don't define the carb energy content, they are indeed invalid. At the very least, we don't feed rodents refined carbs, in any case (high glycemic indes). Think about that, for a moment.
If you don't assess the methodology, you have no business trying to interpret the results.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:13:38
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:13:43
> I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
>
>
> - ScottJust a comment, Scott. Free radicals form from the oxidation of unsaturated fats. Animal fats are safer than plant fats in this regard, because of the degree of saturation.
Your body is fully equipped to metabolize saturated fats. Carbs are converted to stearic and palmitic acids, both saturated fats. Unfortunately, carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which blocks saturated fat metabolism entirely. That's the nub, because de novo lipogenesis (new fat creation from sugars) also stimulates those inflammatory cytokines. Dietary saturated fats do not.
Lar
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 22:22:35
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » SLS, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:13:38
> > I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Just a comment, Scott. Free radicals form from the oxidation of unsaturated fats. Animal fats are safer than plant fats in this regard, because of the degree of saturation.
>
> Your body is fully equipped to metabolize saturated fats. Carbs are converted to stearic and palmitic acids, both saturated fats. Unfortunately, carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which blocks saturated fat metabolism entirely. That's the nub, because de novo lipogenesis (new fat creation from sugars) also stimulates those inflammatory cytokines. Dietary saturated fats do not.
>
> Lar
>
>
Thanks for the explanation!
- Scott
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:48:31
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
It occurs to me that we have struggled with the parameters of our definitions, which also limits the parameters of understanding.
A low-fat diet almost certainly involves a high-carb component, as it is unlikely that the remainder of the caloric intake would be supplied by protein.
Your original post referred to a high-fat diet, specifically. A high-fat diet may or may not be associated with high-carbs, and the distinction is crucial. Unless a diet plan specifically defines the carb content, we cannot know if the remainder of calories are dominantly supplied by carb or by protein. My posts have been focussed on elucidating the difference between these two cases.
However, when a low-carb diet is defined, it almost certainly simultaneously defines a high-fat diet, as it is unlikely that a low-carb diet will find the bulk of the energy calories supplied by protein. It is not hard to find high-fat diet studies, when one uses search parameters limited by "low carbohydrate diet".
PubMedCentral, the full-text site associated with PubMed, yields over 20,000 hits using those keywords. For some reason, PubMed gives fewer, but there is ample opportunity to mine PMC. The beauty of PMC is the reference lists themselves, which allow you to search tangential points from each full-text paper.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 23:15:56
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:48:31
Ooops, forgot to give the link for PubMedCentral and "low carbohydrate diet"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=low+carbohydrate+diet
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2012, at 23:49:02
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 23:15:56
Lar years ago I was on the original Atkins diet of all protein & fat with only carb source a small amount of salad basically greens. I have a 4 hour glucose tolerance test during this time and came out diabetic. When the doc found out the diet I was on. I was told to go home and eat high carbs for two weeks repeat the test which I did and was completly normal. And was told I had low blood sugar. And to eat protein every 4 hours which did til lost Taste & smell so now it dark chocolate. Taste buds sweet, sour, bitter, spicy. Texture is important to me. Any ideas after 4 specialists who said no way how to restore smell & taste? Supposedly some virus destroyed the neurons in nose. It's a loss like no other. thanks, P
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 8:55:02
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:15:58
I think it is safe to assume that a meal high in saturated fat causes inflammation; that is a well-established fact accepted for at least 15 years. But the prevailing thought had been that saturated fat causes our gut lining to become leaky and allow our own bacteria (endotoxins) to slip into our blood stream and cause the inflammation. Then came the study cited below (Erridge, 201). We now know that the high load of bacteria in animal products contain endotoxins (even in dead bacteria so doesnt matter if cook at high temperatures or expose to highly acidic environments like the stomach). And animal fat may play a profound role in the pathogenesis of this after-meal inflammation by increasing the absorption of the endotoxins, since endotoxin has a strong affinity for the saturated fat transport system through the gut wall and into the blood stream (Deopurkar et al., 2010, below).
So what can you do? Whole food plant based diet.
Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23.
Deopurkar R, Ghanim H, Friedman J, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Mohanty P, Viswanathan P, Chaudhuri A, Dandona P. Differential effects of cream, glucose, and orange juice on inflammation, endotoxin, and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3. Diabetes Care. 2010 May; 33(5):991-7.
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 9:14:39
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » rca, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:19:59
On obesity: Of course one can be thin or overweight on a preponderance of protein, fat, or carbohydrates in our diet, depending upon the quantities involved (disregarding other effects than weight gain/ loss, like morbidity and mortality). Whole food plant based diet contains a lot of water and fiber so the tendency is to eat fewer calories to reach satiety.
But there may be more involved than that. Since this thread features gut flora, consider this: Our good gut bacteria, while technically unable to digest fiber, can break it down to an extent to make a compound called propionate which is absorbed into our blood stream. What does propionate do? Well, it inhibits cholesterol synthesis and it has a hypophagic effect meaning it helps us eat less. Apparently it does this by slowing down the rate at which our food empties from our stomachs thereby making us feel fuller, longer. Propionate may be able to regulate food intake or the generation of new fat cells, resulting in an overall anti-obesity effect.
Arora T, Sharma R, Frost G. Propionate. Anti-obesity and satiety enhancing factor? Appetite. 2011 Apr;56(2):511-5.
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 9:39:28
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » rca, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:19:59
A plant-based diet high in fiber may lower bad cholesterol; only in individuals with a type of familial hypercholesterolemia will diet be unable to lower levels into the safe range. For example see the review from the editor and chief of the Journal of American Cardiology below (Roberts, 2010). The literature supporting cholesterol lowering through plant based diet is just too vast to summaries but see for example Ferdowsian, 2009 below.
The new USDA Dietary Guidelines (heavily influenced by meat and dairy industries) even recommend a more plant-based diet to lower cholesterol intake.
Roberts WC. It's the cholesterol, stupid! Am J Cardiol. 2010 Nov 1;106(9):1364-6.
Ferdowsian HR, Barnard ND. Effects of plant-based diets on plasma lipids. Am J Cardiol. 2009 Oct 1;104(7):947-56
US Department of Agriculture. 2011. Report of the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee on the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010.
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